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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

wheel steering

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Cbucki
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/20/2007 : 21:08:25

Hey Folks,
Anyone know how difficult and expensive it is to add wheel steering to a late 70's catalina 25 (currently has tiller steering)

Thanks,

Chuck

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 21:15:20

Bet it costs nearly as much as the boat's worth.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 22:12:39

It costs $1179.95 ([url="http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/h-edson_transom_hung.htm?L+scstore+rmlt7618ff5d1c5d+1195621799"]at pYatch[/url]) plus tax, shipping and labor

. As for difficulty, doesn't seem too bad.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 23:12:46

Why would you want to do this?

Plus the cost of a wheel and a nut, more like $1600.
In my opinion... And then subtract twice that amount from the value of your boat. I am sure you must have a reason for wanting to do this, but a wheel does not belong on a Catalina 25 or 27 and barely on a 30. The only possible reason I can imagine for wanting to have a wheel on such a small boat with such a cramped cockpit would be if the boat had an inboard and you wanted the controls on the pedestal. I am willing to bet you would miss the feel of the tiller. Like I said this is my opinion but I doubt I am alone.
System Includes:
1 Pedestal, 336-5-211
1 Chain and Wire Rope Assy., 775-2S15B11
1 Internal Conduit Bracket, 868-2
1 Tiller Arm Assy., 960-6-211
2 Pull-Pull Conduit Assy., 797-7
4 Pedestal Mounting Bolts, 646-4HEX
1 Tiller Arm Backing Plate, 960-A-1156
2 Take Up Eyes, 618-1-312
4 Wire Rope Clamps, 665-187
1 Rudder Stop Plate, 960-B-465
1 Take Up Eye Pivot Pin, 960-A-2087
1 Fiberglass Notched Pedestal Riser, 813FRP-2.5
1 Transom Conduit Bracket Assy., 960-B-831
1 Transom Face Plate, 960-B-444
1 Transom Boot, 960-B-446
To complete your System, add your choice of Edson Steering Wheel and Accessories
Part Number:

ed645ST245
Product Description: Edson 24 in. 5 Spoke SS Dished Destroyer Wheel
Price:

$ 355.50
Part Number:

ed673st5818
Product Description: Edson SS Wheel Nut 5/8x18
Price:

$ 29.95

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/20/2007 23:16:43

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 00:34:29

When I first got my C25, I was a little disapointed that it had a tiller and not a wheel. And like many others, I've looked into tiller to wheel conversion.

Now that I've sailed this boat a couple years, I would not want a wheel. I've heard from several Old Salts with larger Wheeled vessels that say they prefer tillers.

Three main reasons a tiller is better:
Simpler (can fix it myself - more likely to see potential problems before they turn catastrophic)
More effective (better handling)
Size (Our cockpits are too small for a wheel)

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 05:19:51

I have a wheel on my O'day 30 and hate it - it absolutely looks ridicuous.

Stampeder hits on just about everything in his post above. I'll add a few more to his list.
Less Responsive - The wheel is way too small and one small move =1big correction.
Stupid looking -

There was a post a number of years ago by Gypsy 77 regarding the wheel addition.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 06:26:33

OTHER REASONS TO HAVE A TILLER:

You can steer with your feet

You can steer with your butt

You can steer with it between your legs (and impress the ladies)

It provides a convenient excuse to (accidentally) punch an obnoxious guest in the nose during a fast tack.

It provides a constant reminder that you are not driving a car.

It provides amusement when you hand over the helm to a novice and tell them to turn left.

Edited by - Renzo on 11/21/2007 06:27:21

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 08:10:20

I don't mind a wheel - just don't don't like one that is undersized, un-responsive, and looks like it belongs on a powerboat.

if you put an aftermarket wheel on a 25 it will be undersized, unresponsive and will look like it belongs on a powerboat - unless you want to spend more than the boat is worth on fiberglass work.

Your comments were funny Larry - but I did start pondering:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 OTHER REASONS TO HAVE A TILLER:

You can steer with your feet Can do this with a wheel - possibly even more effectively.

You can steer with your butt go right ahead! - I'm sure you could do this with a wheel but I don't want to get into it. (no pun intended)

You can steer with it between your legs (and impress the ladies) one rogue wave and this thought will soon pass

It provides a convenient excuse to (accidentally) punch an obnoxious guest in the nose during a fast tack. can still do this with a wheel - do you really need an excuse?

It provides a constant reminder that you are not driving a car. cuz the lack of the double yellow line didn't quite sink in ?

It provides amusement when you hand over the helm to a novice and tell them to turn left. I find having them "reverse" the boat out of the slip is an even better form of amusement (load up the dockside with every fender you have first)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is about the size of a wheel that would do the trick for me...

Edited by - on

haley
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 09:45:19

I like the mod in the tech forum where the tiller is able to be pulled up and out of the way while at dock side. My Precision does this and it really makes the cockpit roomier.

Not sure if having a wheel is more conducive to auto helm devices. I know there are versions for both tiller and wheel. A bungee works great on mine. I actually purchased a "tiller tamer" but prefer the simplicity of the bungee.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 11:08:17

HMMMMMMM, I may have just changed my mind on the tiller VS Wheel issue. This looks like a big ol' Dog barrier. Kind of like those barriers used in station wagons to keep the dog in the back. Notice the netting on the lower half of the wheel.

I have a 30" chain saw, so I could easily cut into the cockpit floor and groove out a channel for the big wheel.
Please disregard my previous post, this is a must have.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 11:13:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It provides a convenient excuse to (accidentally) punch an obnoxious guest in the nose during a fast tack.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1) Renzo, you're a genius
2) I don't ever want to sail with you
3) I wish you had told me about this tactic last summer when my sister's boyfriend was aboard
4) Where has your tiller been?
5) I don't want to know the answer to # 4
6) If only you could use your genius for good instead of evil...

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 11:20:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 

Notice the netting on the lower half of the wheel.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Netting is forward of the wheel and used for storage of mainsheets, the throttle arm and any other odds and ends.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 11:59:44

To me, the most important aspect of sailing is feel. The feel of wind and spray on your face, the motion of the boat through the waves, and most importantly, the feel of the tiller. It’s rather amazing just how much information is transmitted through the tiller. It lets you know when to momentarily pinch up or fall off in a puff, when to ease the main, what your boat wants to do when a waves glides underneath. Sometimes this feel is almost imperceptible, but it’s there. I sometimes close my eyes then steer the boat through the feel of the tiller. When I helmed a friends wheel steered boat, I received virtually no feedback from the helm which relegated me to simply being the steerer of the boat, something my autopilot can do, just reacting after the fact instead of instantaneously.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 13:27:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 To me, the most important aspect of sailing is feel. The feel of wind and spray on your face, the motion of the boat through the waves, and most importantly, the feel of the tiller. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

exactly why I like the big wheel on boats like that 10R

As you increase in size, say above a 35, the tiller becomes inefficient, but you can still feel one heck of a lot with a nice wheel.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 13:42:34

I would think having a wheel on larger boats is required due to the size of the rudder and loads, but my experience with wheel steering (under 30') had me feeling it might as well be a fly-by-wire system.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 13:55:51

So... what's up Chuck? Why do you want a wheel? Please don't take all of this as flaming, we are not, we just love our boats and want you to love yours.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 14:44:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Netting is forward of the wheel and used for storage of mainsheets, the throttle arm and any other odds and ends.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, that's a dog fence.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So... what's up Chuck? Why do you want a wheel? Please don't take all of this as flaming, we are not, we just love our boats and want you to love yours.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please understand that I recently put Labarca away for the winter, and I'm feeling a little lost.
Tell us your experience with your boat and why you are considering tiller to wheel conversion.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 16:29:37

Renzo, all your reasons hit it on the head for me. But the car one especially. I drive about an hour each way to work, more if there is an accident. Love being out in the open ocean with my stick.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 17:24:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Love being out in the open ocean with my stick.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Careful how you phrase that Steve, a few of these guys might take it the wrong way and accuse you of sailing as a form o self gratification. Oh! wait a minute, it is a form of self grati...
NEVER MIND

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 17:38:44

I've had a chance to drive the first 10R delivered here in the PNW (squirreled my way on as crew for a few races this fall) AWESOME boat! I will say however, that wheel is a bit over-kill for a 30' boat. The only reason to have a wheel in my opinion is for mechanical advantage, appropriate for larger boats. I used to race on an old 37' IOR boat w/ a tiller, and that was definitely a handful. But the 10R wheel really is for a boat much larger. I got to drive her in 30 knots of wind, and it feels like driving in 10 knots. Looks pretty cool, though huh?

Edited by - millermg on 11/21/2007 17:44:40

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 19:38:17

I'm a little late but "a tiller is good for a 25'"

Beacause A. More Room.

B. See A.

The first ever pictures of the unicorn: http://eclipsefilms.com/unicorn.jpg and http://eclipsefilms.com/saloon.jpg

I re-did the floors with new green janitors carpeting (aisle) and teak & holly re-inforcement under the table.
The boat was formerly, unicorn, dragontail,& lematike, and now unicorn again.
The table flooring was a bit of a drag- I had to tap-out the 6 screws holding the flange down and find the plywood that worked.
The boat is really nice now. Thanks to the last PO's they did a great job! I'm just following their tradition.

PS. Winter Sucks! (unless you're in the tropics :( )

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 20:07:56

Nice job down under.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 20:40:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 I've had a chance to drive the first 10R delivered here in the PNW (squirreled my way on as crew for a few races this fall) AWESOME boat! I will say however, that wheel is a bit over-kill for a 30' boat. The only reason to have a wheel in my opinion is for mechanical advantage, appropriate for larger boats. I used to race on an old 37' IOR boat w/ a tiller, and that was definitely a handful. But the 10R wheel really is for a boat much larger. I got to drive her in 30 knots of wind, and it feels like driving in 10 knots. Looks pretty cool, though huh?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It probably is a bit big, but imho not by much. Especially if you are racing where there is an abundance of light wind days. I intentionally looked for one of the few boats I've actually raced with big wheels - Until now I hadn't even thought about the reasoning Farr designed it with such a big wheel...

I found this from a sailing world review
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Racers who've spent time racing aboard the First 36.7 have found true happiness with the First 10R's cockpit, which has plenty of room for helmsman, main trimmer, two headsail trimmers, and a pitman. Immediately forward of the open transom is a large hatch, which accesses a storage area that accepts an optional liner designed to hold a small liferaft. The large, 63-inch aluminum wheel is covered with leather, and with only three-quarters of a turn lock-to-lock, is designed to provide the same precise, fingertip control as a tiller. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And Chuck - To answer your initial question - you are dealing with a lot of logistics that weren't meant for the boat, at least initially. Linkages, structural support, working upside down in tight spaces etc. Technically it shouldn't be too difficult, but I'd consider it a pain the the you know what as far as projects go.

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 23:44:41

Regarding the big 10R wheel, overkill isn't really bad in this case, just excessive. It really is a joy to drive. It's a bit of a hassle to climb around the "dog fence" to steer from the stern, but, hey it's a race boat! (unlke the Catalina 25...oopse, gonna get tomatoes for that one)

Edited by - millermg on 11/21/2007 23:46:17

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 23:51:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 OTHER REASONS TO HAVE A TILLER:

You can steer with your feet

You can steer with your butt

You can steer with it between your legs (and impress the ladies)

It provides a convenient excuse to (accidentally) punch an obnoxious guest in the nose during a fast tack.

It provides a constant reminder that you are not driving a car.

It provides amusement when you hand over the helm to a novice and tell them to turn left.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

HOW TRUE!!!

Nothing goes over harder with more force that the tiller. You are also somewhat losing the feel of the boat with a wheel.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2007 : 06:49:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 It's a bit of a hassle to climb around the "dog fence" to steer from the stern, but, hey it's a race boat! (unlke the Catalina 25...oopse, gonna get tomatoes for that one)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pretty rare that you will be climbing around. And per your tomato slinging comment - I was chief measurer of this group for 5 or 6 years, vice commodore for 1, raced the boat in 2 nationals including a second overall and was nationals race chair in 2006. I think most people here know that I'd be the first to agree with you, The C-25 is a slow pocket cruiser that races like a winnebago at LeMans. It is anything but a race boat.

Edited by - on

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