Association Forum - Cat 25 Icebreaker !

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Cat 25 Icebreaker !

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/05/2008 : 17:07:00

Last week it has been fairly cold with daytime temps 30-40F and at night for past few nights it has been 20-30F. But we are now experiencing awarming trend with temps climbing into the high 40s and by Tuesday or so, it's supposed to be around 60F. So....figured I would go sailing today.

Went down to the marina. Potomac River & Anacostia River have no ice but inside the marina, there is light ice that has formed between the slips/docks until you go toward the outer half of the docks that are closest to the river. Apparently, the marina is trying to wait it out as long as possible before installing and putting on their water agitators. There was ice for about another 50 feet past my slip blocking me from the river. It appeared to be very thin and had breaks in it every so often as it seemed to be melting. Decided to go out. Ping...ping...ping all the way out. I could then see the sides of the ice, it was about 1/4-3/8" thick. Still, it was making more noise than I expected and I was then a little bit concerned if I scuffed the hull or worse than that. Probably was not the smartest thing to have done...going out today. Anyway, once out of the marina, I put the motor into neutral and checked out what I could see from in the cabin and over the side. Seemed like no effect...so went sailing. Then once out and sailing outside the channels down to about 4-5 ft depth, I hit something massive. Almost stopped the boat as I was making about 3-4 knots and then could sense I was going over something...maybe a log or stump that probably made it's way down the river (underwater ?). I furled up my genoa and then took a look at the bilge - dry and nothing seemed amiss with the keel bolts. Continued sailing.

On the way back into the marina, less ice but it had reformed or new ice was near my slip. So went thru another ice formation of about 25 feet and then maneuvered into my slip which was a little bit unusual since the ice pieces were offering a bit of resistance. Then once in, I gave the hull another look and the bottom paint did not even seem scuffed. But I think next time, maybe I won't go icebreaking again. As far as the keel...seems okay. Probably seemed worse than it was ...it was kind of a shock to come across an obstacle all of a sudden out there. I will probably have the boat raised for a pressure washing a bit earlier next season just to see if any dents, etc in the wing keel.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 17:47:07

couple years ago in January we sailed into Victoria Harbour. There was a thin layer of ice and we had a ball bashing through it. We figured it was a thin layer of fresh water that had frozen on top of the sea water.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 08:30:03

I was a little bit unnerved by the two events yesterday and so it did not add to sailing comfortably. I wound up coming back a bit earlier to the dock than expected. As it turned out, there were no concerns. I guess what all of a sudden was getting to me was the realization that I was one of only a few boaters that were out, single-handed sailing, waters were hovering around 32F temps and if the worse thing happened like sinking of the boat, even having a self-inflatable PFD was not going to help in those frigid conditions. I was thinking what if the boat was to start taking in water...what to do ? I guess first thing I would do if I suspected a slow leak, would be to see if I could get to the source and then try to put something against the spot with pressure applied by something wedged in there. Then start the motor and possibly with the forward motion the bow would be slightly higher in the water and that would perhaps bring it above any leak around the waterline. But then what ?
1) My marina has no services and bringing it back to the slip would have benefits in tying it up and exiting but...the water based on tide can be anywhere's between about 4-7 feet deep in the slip.

2)Could sail it over to the Washington Sailing Marina and tie it up there where they have a lift but if not working it then...could possibly tie up to their floating dock which is not much above 5-6 foot deep at best and does go to about 2-3 feet at low tide.

3) Could call Tow-Boat USA . They should have experience with emergencies, etc but by the time they arrive it may be too late for a leaker. They be best off used for towing when aground or having other sailing/motoring concerns.

4) I guess there is plenty of DC Harbor Police and CG in the area. They would be on the spot probably within minutes.

Have you ever thought of your options ? So much easier to not think about these things and just enjoy going sailing.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 09:59:44

The speedo impellor, if you have one, may lose one or more vanes when riding over most anything hard. A sheet of 1/4" ice would be more than enough to do the job. Did you check it for damage?

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 14:06:41

Larry: Some items to have for emergencies:

- Conical wooden pegs that can be pushed into broken thru-hull fittings to stop most of the water. Tape one to the bottom next to each thru-hull. Most marine stores have packages with a variety of sizes.

- A hunk (like 4"x6"x12") of polyurethane foam (the soft stuff--not styrofoam), pieces of which can be stuffed into a breach in the hull. Rescue boats carry this stuff.

- Heavy-duty duct tape (not the plastic junk), or better, wide, cloth-backed rigging tape (hard to find these days).

You're right--you don't want to end up in 32 degree water at almost any cost! Another option: Run yourself aground, hopefully in mud.

Stampeder: When salt water freezes, the ice is not salty--the salt ions are left in the unfrozen water. In the days of ice-boxes, people would cut up the ice on coastal estuaries, store and deliver it... it was fresh water ice.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/06/2008 14:12:26

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 15:03:19

Good comments/suggestions !

My speed indicator was working fine the entire time out - so no issues there.

Safety stuff:
1) I have the conical wood pegs taped near/onto the seacocks (by PO).
2) The soft foam hunk....good idea. I probably have something around the house that will do the job...otherwise, maybe will get a piece within next month or so when I order foam/cover, etc for the extended bunk.
3) HD Duct Tape/Cloth backed rigging tape. Actually, I have the rigging tape. I also have HD Duct tape and believe some Gorilla Tape...but only the rigging tape is on the boat. The other stuff is either in the tool bag in trunk of my car or in the garage. Guess it doesn't help if it's in the car or garage and need it on the boat. I am overdue to rearrange what I have in a tackle box onboard vs what is in the tool bag in the car.
4) You know...running aground...there was an article in the paper fairly recent of a passenger tourist boat operating believe it was somehwere near the Outerbanks/Pamlico Sound. It was in the channel but hit some pilings that were underwater. The CG or another agency wound up moving the pilings after this incident occurred but the captain of the tourist boat/ferry observed a leak from something like a 1 foot gash in the hull...so he ran the vessel aground for the safety of the passengers and guess also the ship. Believe this turned out to be the best option and with minimal damage to the boat and no loss of passengers.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 17:16:53

Larry,
Sounds like a sobering sail, at least there was no imminent danger, and hopefully there's nothing when you pull the boat either. I think that crunching through thin ice would be kind of cool to do though.

I'm a firm believer in Gorilla Tape, it's the closest thing to the old "90 MPH" tape we used to use in the USN. It sticks really well, to nearly anything, I'm not sure I'd buy any other duct tape any more. I keep a new roll in my tool kit on the boat. I even used some to tape an ice bag to Rita's foot when she broke it a while back.

I don't have any wooden cones on the boat, but I plan to turn some on my lathe over the winter. I've only got two through hulls for my transducer & speed vane, but I should have bungs taped next to both of them, as well as a few more of various sizes for emergencies.

It would seem like the poly foam would simply leak through? Is the idea just to slow down the leak with it? Do you just use it by wadding it into the gap?

I also keep a couple of tubes of epoxy putty in the tool kit. It sets underwater and you could easily fix a small hole with it directly, or use it around a larger piece of wood or whatever to adhere a patch to the hull.

Have you checked to see if your bilge pump actually works? When we got our boat, the PO thought that the closet hanger bar was the pump handle for our pump. I had to make a pump handle from scratch, then I poured a gallon or so of water into the bilge & had Rita pump it out while I watched the water level to make sure it was working properly.

We don't have an electric bilge pump, at least not yet, but it's on my list, just maybe not this winter. So far our bilge has stayed completely dry even after half a year in the water, so I'm not overly concerned about it. I guess if I was out ice breaking I'd have more interest in an electric pump. When I do install one, it'll be as big of one as I can fit in the bilge.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 22:45:04

I am not sure how I came by the Gorilla tape and I have not used it yet. I believe it was on a clearance table at West Marine around September/October.

My bilge pump works. One time when I had put the cover on my boat while it was in the finger slip, I did not fully close it and then the next day when it snowed, the snow melting formed a puddlenear the winch/cockpit area. That was the only time I ever really got any significant water in the bilge area. Not exactly sure how it got in but believe it had to do with the way I had left the cover. Anyway, it wasn't gobs and gobs of water but was enough to test out the bilge pump for a few strokes. Then sponged out the remainder. My thought is that while the bilge pump works, it looked like the rubber diaphragm has seen better days. One day I need to check into if there are still replacement parts available for the bilge pump - then replace the rubber diaphragm.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 22:50:54

I think the idea with the foam is first of all it's the dense foam versus real soft stuff. Then when it is compressed against a leak it would take the contour and fill the void. The compression will make it far more dense and little water would probably come thru it.

I have various epoxies onboard or in my tool bag. I have that stuff that is in the round cylinder and when you slide it out, you then tear a piece off. The center has the catalyst and so when you squeeze the material together with your hands and work it, it then will harden in about 5-10 minutes. Not sure if what I have works on wet surfaces or not. Will check. If it does not...guess it is a good idea to have the epoxy on hand that will work in wet environments.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 15:18:57

An example of the foam I'm talking about is the closed-cell foam in most Type IV throwable cockpit cushions. In a pinch, you could rip one open and use its contents. You want something just flexible enough to be able to cram it into a crack or hole, and solid enough that it will stay there. I saw a powerboat that had hit a rock and was towed in by marine police after their diver stuffed foam blocks into the several holes, including where the prop was pushed up through the bottom. They still had pumps going--the foam just minimized the flow through the biggest holes.

I should add that a Catalina traveling at 6 knots is not likely to be holed by something it hits. The more likely problem is a broken or failed thru-hull, knot meter, or transducer. (This brings to mind the many discussions over the years about the infamous bronze/epoxy "to-hull" fittings in earlier models--I'll just make reference to the Search function for a lot more on that.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/07/2008 15:23:54

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 15:26:05

Larry,
The epoxy you're describing sounds very similar to what I have, two coaxial tubes of putty that you mash together to catalyze the epoxy. A company called PC something makes it. I have both the "marine" version, as well as a metallic version, and I have some MarineTex to boot. All of them set underwater, or at least I'm positive about the PC stuff, and nearly so for the MarineTex.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 16:00:50

Anybody know if that expanding foam you can buy at the home despot to stop air infiltration in the walls of your house will cure under water?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 16:23:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Anybody know if that expanding foam you can buy at the home despot to stop air infiltration in the walls of your house will cure under water?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I dunno--probably, but in an emergency, I think it might be hard to keep in place while it does.

Edited by - on

haley
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 19:01:46

Greetings,

It is good to know that the hardy Catalina may not be holed by a 6mph collision. From the story I would be equally worried about being tossed in the drink. If you were on the fore deck this story may not have had such a happy ending.

One idea I either read in a book or saw in a movie (so viability is suspect) is to use something we all have readily handy - a sail. Run it over the bow and attempt to diaper your baby from the bottom up. The water would hold the sail against the hull, reducing water flow. You can also tie it down with the sheets. At least in Hollywood.

Your thoughts about the chilly temps are sobering. Up here in the Great Lakes though water temperatures can always be a tad chilly. If 32 degree water does you in in 5 minutes, 50 degree water can not be that much healthier. Luckily I am in Lake Ontario, one of the warmer lakes. My point, if I have one, is that yes you were in a hazardous situation, but single handing can be edgy in spring or summer as well. But we still do it and enjoy it.

Aside from duct tape, foam, etc. I find this forum a great boating safety tool. Thanks folks and happy new year!

John

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 21:00:37

On a positive note for single handed sailing, ice-breakers and stump/log hitting: The temps sored up near or above 60F today. Winds 5-10mph. I took a couple of hours off and went sailing. Great afternoon/evening ! No more ice...and nothing went thud out there today. The count on boats out there was one 2 CG boats...one which stayed around watching me take down my main before heading into the marina. Then there was a tigboat pushing a barge downriver toward Alexandria and beyond. One other sailboat I saw in the distance and ....one of those C-Dory Pilot House motorboats...which...is docked about 3 finger slips down from me.. Maybe some of you recall the guy who had a Catalina 25 where a marina's travel lift damaged his boat when it slipped on it's supports - The stay from the bow to the mast top hit the travel lift and then the stay ripped up the deck near the bow. he posted the photo on this Forum back then (probably a year or so ago). The bow looked like "Jaws" the way the deck came up from the bow. Well...the marina settled with him totalling his Cat 25 in what he described was a fair offer. Then he bought a 2004 C-Dory and moved over to my marina. Anyway ...just a bit of trivia from what happened to the guy with that Cat 25.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 21:35:49

John,
The diaper is a reality, you can buy or make a [url="http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/PL-MAT.htm"]collision mat[/url] designed exactly for use as you describe, it's not just Hollywood fiction.

Edit: [url="http://www.caribbeancompass.com/damagecont.htm"]An interesting article[/url] on collisions at sea and designing for survivability.

Edited by - delliottg on 01/08/2008 09:11:40

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 22:54:35

David, the link goes to an article about Bill Gates. I would not attempt to use him as a collision mat.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2008 : 09:11:55

Oops, sorry, fixed. The European Union already tried that.

Edited by - delliottg on 01/08/2008 09:13:29

KiteKraemer
Navigator

Members Avatar

191 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 20:21:53

This is a real newbie question: where are my keel bolts and how do I check them?

My girl: http://eclipsefilms.com/unicorn.jpg has been staying dry except
the very foward hold with the (closed) thru-hulls. 4 gallons accumulated there in
2 months time. Somehow it's getting in!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 20:47:52

You appear to be a swing keel, you do not have keel bolts. They are in a bilge and very obvious.

My '82 used to gather water under the v-berth at the hull. Remember there is a hull liner, the anchor locker drain was leaking and water was running along the hull behind the liner. The amount of water was surprisingly high so a lot of surface area was draining to that point. Hull lights can leak as well. I fixed my anchor drain with a 1" upgrade.

These are from my photo archives in my sig.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4306 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 23:04:41

It's interesting that my '89 does not have the dividers in the keel bolt sump like the ones in Frank's picture above. In fact the sole is a little springy in that area.

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 05:30:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 It's interesting that my '89 does not have the dividers in the keel bolt sump like the ones in Frank's picture above. In fact the sole is a little springy in that area.

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 05:52:52

Gary,

My '89 is like yours in the bilge area - it is open...you see all the keel bolts with no divider. Believe the divider was in earlier catalina Models. Frank's photo may be of the '82 model based on the captions above/below the photo.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 09:03:42

Nope, my 82 was a swinger, that is my 89 #5943. I am shocked that there would be no stringers, I have never seen a bilge without them on any boat. Wow, did Catalina ever quit changing things?
Hey some fin person, do you have stringers in your bilge?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 11:27:09

I didn't. Maybe yours was part of a major structural repair.

Do you have holes for water to migrate through the stringers?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/15/2008 11:29:15

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 11:41:27

Utopia, 78 fin keel, does not have the stringers.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.