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A handful of VHF questions

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 07:32:17

OK - whew! The sailing world just got a little safer and responsible. Thanks to all for creating this topic and working thru the process.

My solution to the "I can't hear the radio" problem on our C25 was to plug in a small cockpit speaker from West Marine and install it in the cockpit. On Lysistrata we always have a handheld in the cockpit and the RAM mic attached to the mother radio turn up. This allows us to switch to a working channel without ever turning 16 off.

Sten

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 08:16:28

You can pick up a cheap computer speaker at radio shack (or a local dumpster) and run it from the radio as well. Or one of the ones designed to plug into an iPOD/Walkman. As long as it runs off internal batteries it will be fine. The trick is to be sure thta you don't place it too close to your tillerpilot or compass as the magnet in the speaker may cause deflection.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 16:53:22

I still have no intention of turning on my VHF. I prefer my iPOD. To each his own. Thank God sailing is still one of the last places you can be free.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 18:09:21

Jim -- Yeah...that is one of the issues as well.

But these guys are making me feel guilty. They seem to do that now and then....I have to add...but for good reasons !

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 20:02:30

Do as you please Jim. I sure hope no one calls for help with you nearby and not listening.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 07:20:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Do as you please Jim. I sure hope no one calls for help with you nearby and not listening.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How do you feel about Jim's weight? Do you think he should lose a few pounds? Should he stop drinking beer? Should he sell his SUV? Let's start a new thread so we can all direct Jim on living his life the way we think he should.

People daysail small boats in confined, local waters all the time without radios, or without them being turned on. Maybe he just wants a few moments of peace and quiet without a squawking radio breaking the mood. I've done that, and hope nobody ever passes a law that prohibits it. If we'd all spend more time learning what the laws really require and practicing good seamanship ourselves, we'd all be a lot safer. I've never sailed with Jim, but I know he has probably logged a lot more sea time and miles in all conditions than most of the members of the forum, and that he's a very knowledgeable and conscientious seaman.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 10:36:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Do as you please Jim. I sure hope no one calls for help with you nearby and not listening.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If Jim were nearby to a distressed vessel, I believe he would surely notice the distress flag, flares, and the sounds of a horn that should be emanating from the vessel in need.

Do I keep my VHF cranked up on CH16? To be honest, my VHF radio also spends most of its time powered off.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 11:20:20

I'll step down a little and admit I wasn't as conciencious when my VHF was inside the cabin on my C-25, especially when day-sailing. I am much more inclined now that my radio is right above the helm, and I'm driving a boat that is much more capable of providing assistance--in fact I get some satisfaction from that. (All that's missing is a blue light-bar!

) I've been listening to and learning from the Coasties, commercial captains, and even the sub captains entering and leaving New London--very educational. And I've become aware that minute-to-minute situational awareness is a bigger issue on a powerboat moving at 20 knots than on a sailboat on starboard at 5.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/26/2008 11:23:04

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 13:08:30

I don't care what Jim weighs. That wont impact other boaters. I guess we disagree on what makes for a responsible boater and what each of us should do even if it is not required.

The USCG states:

"In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate."

There is a reason for that. Things can go bad in a hurry on the water. If some captain has a heart attack and the crew (assuming they can use it) gets on the VHF for help then I hope people are listening. Flares and flags are not what people will use. The VHF is. That is why the Coast Guard and every other entity responsible for boating safety asks that you have it on.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/26/2008 13:09:01

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 14:20:57

You "knowledgeable" sailors - and I know you are after reading your posts over the years - who have determined that you are safe w/o the radio on are cool. I understand, and have not been as dilligent myself in the past. (That been said - I seem to run into a bunch of stuff when monitoring 16 these days.) But why encourage a newbie to take the same risks? Why not encourage good radio practice, especially on a forum where education is key?

Take the risks you want. Sailing is inheritantly risky. But encourage your fellow sailors to be at least better than you are. We all need each other, or might. I would also remind everyone that YOU are America's first line of defense in terms of homeland security. If you think it looks weird, call it in.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 15:27:10

If the federal government thought a radio was essential to safe and responsible boating, it would require one, and would require that it be turned on at all times. In the absence of such a mandate, the government has left it in the discretion of the boater. It seems that we all agree (myself included) that the radio should generally be on and tuned to channel 16. The only difference between us is that the law allows the owner discretion, but you don't.

There are lots of reasons why the federal government made it discretionary. Some smaller boats don't have a battery, or might only have one battery and no means of recharging it while underway. They might have to conserve their battery power for their lights at night. I sailed for over 20 years on a tiny inland lake, 1 mile wide by 5 miles long, where radios were almost never used, even though some boats had them to use when the boats were trailered to go cruising. The coasties didn't monitor the lake, and neither did anyone else. In over 20 years, not a single person lost his life because the radio wasn't on. We were very safety conscious on that lake, but, if anyone had suggested that a radio was necessary for safety in that situation, people would have thought they were nuts. The law makes it discretionary, because the responsibility for the safety of the vessel and its passengers ultimately rests upon the skipper, and there are circumstances in which it's either an unrealistic requirement, or the risk is so remote as to make it unreasonable to require a radio.

The best service we can provide to our fellow sailors is to give them complete and accurate information as to what the law requires, as well as our own experience, and trust them to make the right choices.

We have a right to our opinions, but not to impose them on others.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/26/2008 15:54:24

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 16:53:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 The best service we can provide to our fellow sailors is to give them complete and accurate information as to what the law requires, as well as our own experience, and trust them to make the right choices. We have a right to our opinions, but not to impose them on others.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, from numerous sources I've looked at recently (starting with Chapman's), I've cocluded that "international law" and US Coast Guard regulations require that if you have a VHF radio turned on (which you are not required to do), and it is not being used for active communication on some other channel, you must monitor Channel 16. In one place, I saw that Channel 9 is allowed as an alternative, but I'm not convinced that's supported by the regulations. I'm convinced to my satisfaction that the regulations are based on the principle that the VHF radio is first and foremost to be used for safety at sea. (To that end, another regulation says you can't install SSB or Satellite phone equipment on your boat unless you have a VHF as well.)

Thus, the law apparently allows you to have the VHF turned off (to conserver your battery or your sanity). And, there is virtually no chance you get caught languishing on 71... just as you won't get caught smoking pot in your family room.

This is not my opinion--it is my reading of everything I've been able to find so far. And most of it was news to me. Whether anyone choses to be "imposed on" by this is up to that individual.

Sarge out and standing by on 9, 1-3, and 1-6.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 17:04:09

We have a right to our opinions, but not to impose them on others.

Steve, I agree 100%. How we all want to interpret the LAW is up to you.
I choose to turn on my radio cause primarily if something did happen to me, I don't want want my crew/passengers wasting time figuring out how to turn it on-boy that sounds selfish- in order to save not only my life but theirs as well. If we are to be the Captain, then the safety of those on board should be #1.
Secondly, my radio is on to help a fellow sailor in need. I can only hope that neither is necessary. I wont think any, well not much, lessor of those who do not choose to have your radio on.
Steve A

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 17:55:39

After all of this...well, I am planning on going sailing tomorrow and chances are I will have this discussion on my mind - So I will put the VHF "On" , otherwise, I am sure I will get the evil eye looking in on me from the Forum bunch.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 23:08:16

Look if anyone needs help in our local waters there is USCG with several cutters, 2 local USCG orange RIBS with 2, 200 HP engines patrolling the border, several USCG helicopters, SDPD and SD Sheriff have 8 helicopters, Vessel Assist, Sea Tow, Mission Bay lifeguards with 3 big motor boats plus jet skis, and San Diego Harbor Patrol with a small fleet. There is also the US Navy, and USCG Auxilary. There is an active fishing fleet on 72 and on any given day we have at least 10 100 foot local fishing whale/watching boats in the water.

I think its a sure bet that those assets could get to anyone in distress a whole lot faster than me. Besides I all I have a 9.8 HP outboard and a bilge pump on a 25 foot sail boat, what could I do? If I was close enough to see a fire, see a boat on the rocks, see someone going down, of course I would help. I would call in for help for them and monitor 16 per USCG instructions. If I had the VHF on 16 all day all I would realistically be doing is listening to someone else doing the rescue. Let the pros do the rescue. In reality they would not want my help anyhow.

In my approximately 20,000 miles at sea I have pulled two boats off soft groundings, I towed several disabled friends vessels with my C25 - A C30 and a Bayliner 25(I would not tow a stranger). I once came across a man swimming about a mile offshore (he declined help). I recused a guy who lost his kayak. During my 5000 mile voyage Milwaukee to the Bahamas I had the radio on VHF 16 virtually the whole way - that was different.

Remember, 99% of the time I have zero boats in sight and I'm about 3 to 5 miles from Mission Bay on average. Indiscipline III can only make 6 knots at best. MB Lifeguards can make 40. I carry 2 VHFs in case I need help and I do use them when it makes sense (entering/leaving SD Bay, during races, during Fleet 7 activities, and when we are doing a cruise). I am a member of Vessel Assist. I am aware of the law on the matter. I am not required to have the radio on.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2008 : 23:16:22

Also for the record:

God yes, I need to lose a few pounds.

I drive a 60+ MPG Honda Insight Hybrid.

I rarely drink beer and even more rarely Mt. Gay Rum. But sometimes in moderation. I'd say my favorite drink is coffee and Kaliuha.

I almost never wear my lifejacket and harness.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 08:32:59

Jim,

It seems to me you need at least 2 more helicoptors.....and then some noise cancelling headphones.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 09:03:47

We were sitting on a mooring ball this past summer, working on the boat. We saw a sailboat with one of the old salts aboard and a couple of newbies he was trying to train approach their mooring ball under sail. Nice I thought. School them the old fashioned way. Three attempts all failed to connect them with the nice white floating thingy. Next thing we heard was their vessel hailing SeaTow. They were having engine trouble and were sans engine. SeaTow responded - as did I - since we were monitoring 16. I offered my assistance and they readily accepted. Put my pfd on, clipped a handheld to my belt and proceeded to dink over to their ball. On their next pass I was able to throw the pennant on board which was promptly cleated and a $500 bill if not a member was saved.

22 footer in Gale Warning issuing MayDay off of Coney Island - we assisted becasue we heard the MayDay. 25 foot sailboat with 8 year Army Vet aboard issuing mayDay becasue he dropped the main before the genny and got himself wrappd pretty bad. We were 10 nautical miles away from him when we heard the distress call. Fortunately a fisherman was able to save his sorry ass 'cuz he was in shallower water than we could have gone and we eventually escorted him into safe harbor. All this and a whole lot more has happened since we religiously monitor 16.

Choose not too. I never said it was the law, just that it was good seamanship. Yeah sure, we have moved to seven-one to listen to a private conversation and forgotten to switch back. While on the hook after hours, we don't leave the radio on, etc... But underway, it's OK. Here's a tip. Tired of hearing stupid stuff and only want to hear the guy next to you telling you that he has just taken some great shots of your boat underway? Turn the power down to one watt and give the squelch an extra 1/4 turn up.

True story - we were flying - see pics at http://sims.myphotos.cc/~wave16/2007cruise/10_13_07/index24.htm - http://sims.myphotos.cc/~wave16/2007cruise/10_13_07/index25.htm - http://sims.myphotos.cc/~wave16/2007cruise/10_13_07/index26.htm - and this guy shot all of these great shots of our boat. Unfortunately, the photos are worth more than my vessel but we were made aware of his existence via VHF 1-6...

We have met other cruisers who don't tunr on 16 unless they see someone. That's cool if you are just day sailing I suppose, but for those of us whose RV is floating, it is widely considered a sin. Our swedish friends on SV Elvina - ran into another swedish boat in Norfolk VA. Possible hookup and buddy boating opportunity - right? NO, "They don't listen to 16 unless they see a ship!" Elvina complained. SO, as with Cetol vs. varnish vs. nothing at all, there are different schools of thought and rightfully so in some cases.

You don't have to assist to be helpful. Many a time the Coasties will ask if anyone has heard a distress call that ended abruptly to answer up so that they might be able to triangulate the vessel in distress' location based on who heard it, your mast height, your location, etc.

For those of you not used to having the radio on, I assure you that you will A: learn stuff, B: realize how many idiots are really out there, C: get used to it such that you only hear important stuff.

"SV Lysistrata standing by 16. Lysistrata OUT!"

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 11:21:57

I guess a big difference between me and RedViking is that for you, there are other boats around. Here, especially in winter, I can be virtually the only boat out there. There is little to no social occasion that could be missed by not having the radio on. All my friends have my cell phone number. I always have that on. When I was cruising the ICW the VHF was always on. There is also a huge fleet of safety resources and most people are not dumb enough to skip belonging to Vessel Assist or Sea Tow. Also my C25 is the smallest and lowest horsepower boat around.

Here in SD, 99% of the boats don't have it on 16 all day. The fishermen are all camping on 72. The racers are on 69 or 71.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 12:06:47

Well, around here 99% of the cars are doing 70+ under a 55 limit and those who don't might get rear-ended. Local customs can rule... What I've learned is there are some regs on the water I didn't know about, and some good reasons for them that I did know. For general purposes, I'm suggesting that others join me in understanding and following the regs. YMMV. Sarge out.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 15:26:37

I was out today. I was only sailboat. For that matter, from the number of cars in the parking lot (mine and a marina guy), I was the only one out from my marina (it was around 38F). I left my VHF on. Just as I was getting ready to undock, I could see over the boats and docks out in the river (I am on the section of the Anacostia River just before the Potomac River), there were large water sprays coming from something out there making a horrendous noise. I took a look - 2 military type believe hovercraft were circling around in front on my marina and down to first bridge up river (The Anacostia River - that's toward the new Washington DC baseball Stadium set to open this Spring). I undocked and got out before they came back. As I sailed out with just my main, I saw the two of them also come out into the Potomac and then switch into what I suspect was medium speed down the Potomac. After they were gone, it was then pretty quiet out there except for an occasional military helicoptor, a pass by the CG and the planes taking off and landing at Wash Natl Airport. One tour boat was also out there.

I had the VHF turned up but the one mesg that came over it, I could not hear from the cockpit. I guess I should have turned the volume up some more. I do not think I want to go the speaker mounted in the cockpit area route. Even with a speaker from the base unit, there is still the short mic cord. When I get ready to do something about it, believe I will go the new base unit and wired remote plug in the cockpit area route.

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/27/2008 15:27:54

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 15:55:40

Larry: An option on my Uniden 525 VHF is the "WHAM" microphone, a wireless mic with built-in speaker and some controls on it. I opted for a separate handheld, which I think is useful for some situations and emergencies, and makes a good backup. Most can stand-by for hours on their batteries--transmitting takes more juice.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/27/2008 15:57:45

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 16:21:50

One of the first things they taught us Navy kids (age 15 when I joined the Royal Navy).
The English phonetic alphabet is...

Alpha
Bravo
Charlie
Delta
Echo
Foxtrot
Golf
Hotel
India
Juliet
Kilo
Lima
Mike
November
Oscar
Papa
Quebec
Romeo
Sierra
Tango
Uniform
Victor
Whiskey
Xray
Yankee
Zulu

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 16:29:15

Radio on? IMHO: Somewhat a situational issue. Inland lake, nice day, lots of recreational boats around? Probably not that important.

North Pacific, water temp 52 (hypothermia in 15 minutes), scattered fishing fleet, not much CG around, no vessel assist.. you betcha I monitor 16 (triple watch with 68 and 72).

We have to look out for each other.

>"I almost never wear my lifejacket and harness."

JimB, don't you think your family would miss you? Flotation + strobe/VHF/EPRIB = Fair to good chance.
Human bobbing around in the water with no floatation... not much chance.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 18:57:38

IMHO, wearing a safety harness is a situational thing, too. On my old, small inland lake, I could have swam to shore from anywhere, and there were boats all over the place, that could help me. Back then, I could run from cockpit to bow and back on a rolling boat without needing a handhold. Now that I'm 65, on the Chesapeake, where other boats are few and far between, and the shore is a long ways off, I wear a harness and use a jackline whenever I'm singlehanding, except in flat calm water, and the day may be approaching when I may hook up even then. In calm water, even if I'm not hooked up, I'm wearing a pfd. If you're singlehanding, in an isolated situation, it's too easy for the boat to lurch and send you over the side. It only has to happen once, and you might not get a chance to learn from your mistake. Machismo doesn't have anything to do with it. It's a matter of sound judgment.

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