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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Upgrading the scuppers

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:02:02

My cockpit scuppers drain down through the sole and have needed fixing for a few decades, I guess. The brass strainers over the scuppers often get clogged up with schmutz. I would like to upgrade to scuppers that drain through the transom, like on newer C25's.

Is it feasible to drill holes in the transom above the cockpit sole first with a guide hole to center, then with a 1 3/4" circular saw from the inside and outside, insert two 1 3/4" PVC tubes, cut off the ends and seal them inside and out with 3M-101 or 3M-4200?

I bought a saw (drill attachment) and some tubes of exactly the same diameter.

Has anyone tried this? What's the downside?

A previous post from Bear on "Spring Upgrades" showed the newer scuppers, but I believe they were from the factory on all C25's by then (Capt.Bear, 83 C25 "Surprise" #4009 FK/SR).

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:18:55

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=L3836
http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/HARDWARE-Scuppers_Drains.html
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=536

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:21:17

John, Im very new to this so Im just giving you a heads up.

Are the pieces of PVC slightly oversized to stick just a little out from the inside and outside of the transom or are they a perfect fit? I personally would try 5200 or whatever that stuff is, but before that even, I would try and epoxy them in. Have you thought of that route? Not sure that that is even the correct way but Im curious myself.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 16:08:10

I have the thru-cockpit scuppers - would measurements etc. be helpful? I can try to get pics for you tonight - but I do have my VHF course and won't get home until late.

A word of warning - measure the pipe against your hole saw. You likely already know this, but a 1" pipe is not really 1" diameter (inside or outside diameter) you can find a pipe schedule, or I could scan one for you if it would be helpful. The catch there is the question of whether your pipe retailer is selling you the good stuff or stuff that is even slightly not to size. You simply cannot re-drill with a hole saw. Dirlling oversize and filling with epoxy may be an option. Another option may be to drill oversize, fill with epoxy, and use the pipe as a plug. They you withdraw the plug afterwards leaving nicely epoxied holes.

My other concern with using a hole saw is that the saw may wander in the cut. be sure you have a good pilot bit in the centre of the saw, and a steady hand. Too bad you can't put the boat on a drill press...

I have never attempted any of this stuff, so like David, I am speculating.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 16:52:20

My C-22 is in the shop right now for bottom and keel work and scuppers are on the list. The guy doing the work, and he is very good I'm told - I'm in Nashville, he's outside Atlanta, is using PVC sink standpipe, with the flange on the cockpit side, and 3M 5200 for the sealant. He will then trim off the pipe from the outside. From what I've read in the Cataline Direct catalog, and they do sell a kit for this, you should drill the holes just large enough to seal the raw material thoroughly and still have just enough room to insert the pipe. My C-25 already has the scuppers, so I don't know the recommended spacing between the scupper and the cockpit floor to maintain structural integrity.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 17:14:36

A few years ago I saw something at West--a 2-part plastic thru-hull with a mushroom on the outside and a flange on the inside--the parts screwed together. The unique part was that the flange was flattened and tapered on one side so the pipe could be virtually flush to the cockpit sole, with a good seal all around. I was thinking that if I re-did my thru-transom drains (which were leaking a little), I'd use them. Haven't seen 'em (or looked for 'em) since, but they're probably still around.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 07:21:25

Frank,
That is a good collection of scupper options.

Since breaking waves in thunderstorms and swamping wakes from passing ships on the Ches. Bay are rare, I may not need scuppers with ball-cock one-way valves. If I were on the ocean, that would be a different story.

Increasing the scupper diameter from the 3/4" drain hose original equipment by using one of the large ones shown in the links will add a lot to the safety of myself and the crew, I think.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 07:49:55

Dave,
West Marine had this item, and the flanges look like an important design feature:
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/50500/377%20710/0/scuper/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=scuper&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=scuper&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=11&subdeptNum=70&classNum=77"]West Marine Link[/url]

dmpilc,
I think the scuppers are essentially flush with the cockpit sole to drain well.

Prospector,
I'll certainly have to practise with the hole saw on scrap wood to get it right.

David P,
The PVC tubes I picked up are about 8" long with lots to trim with a dremel tool after installation.

I would like to caulk both sides of each of the transom and the cockpit holes. I think there is an inch or so of dead space in there that is hard but not impossible to access from the quarterberth. My C25 buddy who sails on the Narragansett Bay repaired his traveler attachments at the top of that small space, and there are gudgeon replacement discussions on this board that highlight the difficulties, but if Dave Bristle's [original?] scuppers leaked for any reason, then it's important to seal off this hole in the hull as best as possible. Maybe a caulking gun extension tube made of plastic would do the trick.

I am trying to eliminate the minor leaks down into the bilge and the cockpit sole that I have with the factory installed scuppers, and eventually I'll replace the sole. But the cockpit sole repair is an adventure with the West System for a different day.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/06/2008 08:25:03

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 07:55:06

John: The thru-transom scuppers are over a foot above the waterline. The flappers and balls are for boats with cockpit soles just inches above... and they reduce the efficiency. I suspect hardly anyone here has had any significant back-wash through their transoms--maybe a little splash--even on the ocean. Heck--the C-250s hardly even have transoms!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/06/2008 07:56:30

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 08:25:09

Dave,
That makes sense; and cents, too. Every boat unit counts.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 09:32:43

If I were installing ready made scuppers with threaded parts, I'd caulk them in. If I were fabricating PVC pipe scuppers, I'd epoxy them in.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/06/2008 09:33:16

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 10:01:23

So after I test the hole saw on various scrap wood pieces and see if I can get precise enough a hole to fit well, then I will get ready to cut holes in the hull and epoxy the precut PVC tubes in place. That's a good suggestion, Don.

Otherwise I may buy the threaded models and caulk them under the external flanges.

Edited by - JohnP on 02/06/2008 10:02:12

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 10:45:22

Epoxy doesn't bound very well to PVC, and you should probably have something flexible. PVC will get brittle with age and UV, so I would think you would be better positioned for future replacements with polysulfide caulk rather than epoxy or 5200. Of course still use epoxy to seal the edges of the cut. I just redid my chain plates, and I can say that polysulfide bonds tightly and remains flexible for many years. And it's a bear, but it is removable.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 13:36:19

How 'bout a couple of these...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/06/2008 13:36:52

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 13:38:38

Ignorant Newbie question here - Why not go the plug an mold technique, and do away with any plastic in the hole? You wouldn't have to worry about fit, just epoxy in the drain screens. For that matter I might even be tempted to forget the screens, and put stainless steel X in the holes (like a bathroom sink drain) to prevent loss of valuables.

It seems to me that even If I were doing this with the pipe I would want to make the hole slightly oversized ( 1/8" or so +/- ) so that I could build up a good bed of epoxy/5200 before putting anything in it.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 13:44:23

One thing to consider: The older Catalinas, 22's and 25's, that were built without the scuppers in the transom have a cockpit sole that is sloped forward for drainage. Be a good idea to keep the forward drains, then you'll have drainage at both ends of the cockpit.

David P,
The PVC tubes I picked up are about 8" long with lots to trim with a dremel tool after installation.
Use a hacksaw.

dmpilc,
I think the scuppers are essentially flush with the cockpit sole to drain well.
Makes sense.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/06/2008 13:48:25

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 14:36:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 One thing to consider: The older Catalinas, 22's and 25's, that were built without the scuppers in the transom have a cockpit sole that is sloped forward for drainage.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

David,

Actually, I believe the sloping forward of the cockpit floor is a byproduct of the swing keel design which may slope the whole boat towards the bow.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 14:52:20

That's probably true. I know that when I raise the keel on the C-25, the o/b definitely sits deeper in the water. The effect on a C-22 is not nearly so dramatic, but the C-22 sole definitely slopes forward. I've got scuppers in the C-25.

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 17:34:34

My model/year has only transom scuppers. There is a shallow trough accross the width of the sole and the scuppers are slightly elevated above the trough. It can be anoying when debris accumulates in the trough, but perhaps it helps to prevent standing moisture from penetrating around the tubes by capillary attraction.
I do not have, and would not want screens in the scuppers. That might invite clogging with debris, like leaves, etc. You would not want to find your cockpit full of dirty water after an autumn storm or a winter layup.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 17:47:44

Now that I've seen Dave's chrome exhaust pipes, I'm sold on the idea!
And with the waterproof stereo speakers I will attach, I can pump 500 watts of stinkpot-shattering noise out of the transom.

Now that's a sailing machine to fear! Those puny cigarette boats out on the bay will just stall out and have to paddle back to shore.

Mega-scuppers!!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 18:35:45

Dave & JohnP,

It'll be alright, boys. Take your medicine. Winter will end.

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