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Battery thoughts

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newell
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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/11/2008 : 08:10:25

As most of you are aware, if the word "marine" is attached to anything that you purchase for your boat, it will cost you a lot more than if you can find a "non-marine" replacement. That said, I am wondering about marine deep cycle batteries vs. so-called standby batteries. Stand-by batteries are often used to backup the house AC when ou need your sump pump to be activated. As I understand it they are deep cycle batteries, they can be routinely found with 200 amp hours and they cost about 2/3 as mush as a "marine" battery. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

newell

Newell
1980 C25 SR/SK
AVALON

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 08:53:30

I've used them in my boat... worked fine.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 09:43:40

A couple of my books recommend golf cart batteries as well for a cost effective manner to gain amp hours. They're generally 6 volts so you'll have to wire them in series to get 12 volts, and series-parallel if you want more than one bank.

Edited by - on

tinob
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1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 10:27:18

Hi Newell, I've been the route of marine battery use and their high prices and took a chance on Cosco's deep cycle batteries @ 40 something dollars per and my only comment at this juncture ( 5 years later)is that they are still going strong. Cosco calls these batteries Marine grade. I day sail almost exclusively and have only the Nissan's alternator during season to maintain the batteries. I probably sail 4/5 days a week weather permitting and use the motor perhaps 15 minutes a day. On occasion, mid summer (north east)they require an on shore charge. I run a vhf and stereo radio constantly while asea and occasionally the autohelm. Most folks might call this usage minimal.

Off season I keep the batteries in the garage on a bench wherein they get a trickle charge monthly, using a Sears smart charger. Water is checked periodically and when needed distilled water is used.

Hope this helps

Val on the hard, DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 20:16:46

Good marine batteries have better internal support structures and handle vibration and slams better. I don't know how long they last, but possibly longer than my Walmart deep cycles - one of my three is fast approaching a decade. The oldest one doesn't get house battery honors anymore, but it still supplies a trolling motor with no noticeable reduction in available time. Just keep discharges to less than 50% as with any lead acid battery, use a good quality smart charger, and you should get good life.

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Voyager
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5416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 21:10:40

Dave is right about the physical strength of the marine batteries - they're tougher, but the Costco batteries are about as long lasting if they are secured properly.

I know I should start another thread about this question, but here goes:

What size and type of solar charger do folks use for medium-duty power on a C25? I've seen several boats wth 7-10 amp solar panels (84 - 120 W), along with a 10A regulator, and this set up seemed to be adequate.

As far as power consumption, I use my VHF at 1-2A, my 20W stereo about 4-6 hours, my laptop (50W), cabin and achor lights after dark and a 12V fan when it gets really hot and sticky in the summer.

I prefer not to recharge the battery with the engine at the dock or at a mooring if I can help it. I can also pull the battery and recharge it in my garage, but this is a pain.

I occasionally run about 1.5 km up or down the river against the current, so this will top it off....

Any suggestions?

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Stu Jackson C34
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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 16:16:55

Batteries: I, too, have avoided the dreaded marine prices. We bought (3) 130 AH deep cycle batteries from American Battery a few miles away from our house. $95 each vs. $130 for West Marine. Years later they're still going strong. Just make sure to get deep cycle batteries.

Solar panels: You should do an energy budget, figure what you use and then how much and how you intend to replace it. What other people have on their boats may not match how YOU use your boat. West Marine's "prices" on knowledge are priceless and free on their website under Product Advice, or in their catalogs. A form is here: http://www.westmarine.com/pdf/Elecbugt.pdf. You could also make up your own simple spreadsheet.

We used an 11 watt panel on our C25 on a single 95 ah bank. The trick is how long you like to be out without recharging based on what you use electrically, and the ONLY two things that affect that are the size of your battery bank and the charging equipment you have. BTW, my understanding is that the alternators on outboards only produce about 60 watts maximum, most likely at WOT.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 19:44:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Dave is right about the physical strength of the marine batteries - they're tougher...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which only makes sense (maybe) in a high-speed power boat. A car or truck will physically stress your battery a lot more than your Catalina will. I don't buy the "marine" stuff in this case. I do buy the advantages of AGM batteries--their much greater tolerance of deep discharges without damamge, their very low self-discharge rate (just a couple percent in a year), and thus the lack of a requirement to remove, store, and charge them during the off-season. They are also sealed and can be turned upside down or sideways (like gel-cells), but they aren't as sensitive as gels. They seem perfect, to me, for sailboats.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 23:00:12

60 watts is correct - that is only 5 amps. Some are only 50 watts. On the upside, AC alternators reach their rated output at much lower rpm's than the old (ancient?) DC generators, but an hour for 5 amp hours is a lot of noise for little reward. On a sailboat they usually do little more than replace their starting draw. I am usually at a marina and have a hard wired marine charger, but even with 2 big batteries I would go solar if spending much time on the hook. For most of us, the eco-friendly panel is a satisfactory answer.

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Voyager
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5416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 23:09:41

So it looks like I severely over-estimated the amount of power I need:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">solar panels (84 - 120 W) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd be better off assuming 50W max (4.2A), The panel costs approx $130, plus a $40 regulator at West Marine. This combo should do an adequate job under most circumstances.

Thanks for the advice!

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OLarryR
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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 05:32:50

Are you sure about that price for a 50 Watt panel ? $130 ? and from West Marine ? My experience has been that a 20 watt panel will cost in the neighborhood of $175- $200. 50 Watt panels are generally considerably more in cost and size.

In any case, when pricing and checking out solar panels, they are not all equal dimensions for same wattage meaning...they are not all the same in efficiency packed into the smallest footprint. It depends how they are made - How the cells are individually hooked up, what crystals/cells are used in the panel. If you review a number of panels from some of the panel distributors such as Northern Arizona Wind & Sun and check out the dimensions amongst the mfrs, you will see what I am talking about. For example, my Kyocera 20 watt panel from Northern Arizona Wind & Sun is 14" X 20". But some othe rmfrs with same wattage panel need a footprint approximately 25% greater in size. The flexible panels you lay on the deck are versatile but they have the largest footprint, cost and shortest warranty periods. Just some things to think about.

Here is the web link for Northern Arizona Wind & Sun and they have a wealth of info besides various panels to choose from on their website. My website also has details of how I made mounting brackets for my rigid panel mounted off the stern as well as other details. I have had my Kyocera rigid panel up and running for over 2 years - I bought it from Northern Arizona Wind & Sun. Also look into how the panel is constructed for mounting since not all have same features. Controllers also can be minimal and do the job or can be deluxe with digital readouts indicating panel amperage and battery voltage. Once you go over 5 watts in a panel, then a controller is a necessity to prevent cooking the battery.

http://store.solar-electric.com/1to39wasopa.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/13/2008 05:42:07

newell
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 15:39:10

I too have purchased a solar panel from Arizona Wind and Sun. They are good folks with which to deal.

newell

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2008 : 11:02:22

Thanks Larry. I think I combined two thoughts in one sentence. Yes, West Marine had 50 watters at a much higher price.

I checked it out and the Arizona Wind & Sun site looks like a good spot for renewable power.

How well does your 20W unit work for your boating schedule? Do you have any other sources of power? For example, how often/long do you have to run the engine or put the battery on a conventional charger?

Newell - what's the size and power rating of your solar panel(s)? Do you have to supplement your batteries at all?

I went ahead and purchased a 30 Watt unit from Boaters World. While it won't cover my entire power budget if I use the boat every day, it should do a fine job if I spend weekends and a weekday on the boat.

I'll let you know how it works out this summer.

Edited by - Voyager on 02/17/2008 11:03:35

OLarryR
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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2008 : 17:33:22

Bruce,

I have two batteries. A battery trickles out less than .5 amp/day in the summer and 1/2 that in the winter months. So...for 2 batteries and being conservative, need to recharge about .75Amps - 1amp/day. I have little else that drains the batteries on a regular basis except for running lights perhaps 2 nights a week for a couple of hours on the average. My mini-boombox for now is running on it's owm rechargeable batteries and I infrequently use it. I have started leaving the VHF radio on while I go sailing, so there's that as well.

My outboard is a 2006 Honda 9.9Hp w/12 amp alternator but oftentimes I just use it to go in and out of the marina with an occasional 1 hour or more use if I am not near the marina and the wind dies. So...it charges a bit but not for long time duration.

The 20 watt solar panel can put out 1.2 amps/hr - I have seen the digital readout on the controller hit 1.2amps but only on perfect days and only if I hold the panel perfectly perpendicular to the sun's rays. On a regular day and in the fixed mounting (horizontal in summer and angled in winter) it reads .4Amps, then goes to about.6-.8 amps and then back to about .4amps toward the end of the brightest daytime light. That is ....estimate in summer 3-4 amps a day plus a wee bit addl from the motor. Maybe it will be sunny 4 days a week, partially for 1-2 and rainy 1-2 days....so figure I am getting a recharge of an average of 12+ amps a week, batteries trickle out 5 amps a week and addl loads (lights ...6amps/week.

My experience is that the 20 watt charger is doing the job for me with no addl support since I do not oftentimes use the running lights for that long and I am occasionally running the motor as well. The batteries were from the PO and that was 2 1/2 yrs ago and they are still going strong...usually the digital readout shows them around 12.8-13.2 volts when the panel is not charging.

Others may have more battery use, so a larger panel probably would be preferred. I have even considered going with a larger Kyocera panel. My 20 watt is 20X 14" and they have another that is 20 X 25"...I think that was for a 30 watt..can't remember.
So...if you are going with a 30watt and you have sun in your neck of the woods and do not use gobs of battery power, then you will be fine.

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