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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Rigging

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Puff
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2002 : 16:37:59

I just had custom made rigging installed on my boat. Upon close inspection, several of the swaged ends that screw into the turnbuckles are slightly curved. I questioned the rigger about it and he said that it happenend in the die that does the swaging and that they would straighten out under load. Does this seem reasonable? I have not yet paid for the rigging.

Thanks for your advice.

Puff

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 16:50:05

As Click and Clack would say, BO-OH-OH-OH-GUS!

Don't pay for the rigging, and either make him do it over again correctly or order the right stuff from Catalina Direct.

Brooke

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 17:06:55

BEEE - ESSSS! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> If that were a plausible explanation, all of the swages would be bent. I doubt very much that a normal rigging load will pull the bend out--it didn't on my previous boat, and even if it did, every time you bend and unbend a piece of stainless steel, you're weakening it a little.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 20:28:53

Puff,

What you describe sounds like a "banana swage". The rigger is right, it happens in the pulling die. However, it does *NOT* "heel" itself! It is a failure waiting to happen, and needs to be replaced immediately. If you read up on this in Brion Toss' book, "The Rigger's Apprentice", on pages 278 & 279, he addresses this very sort of problem.

"Some swages are made by a rotary swageer, which hammers the fitting rapidly from all angles, making a smooth finished surface" {I guarantee that's not how yours were done. -- LS} "If you see a lengthwise ridge on the barrel of the swage, it was formed by passing it between the dies of a Kearney swager. Kearney swages are far more likely to crack, and frequently end up with a disquieting banana shape. Don't use them.

"Sta-Lok and Norseman fittings are the best mechanical terminals -- right up there with splices in terms of trustworthiness. They're screwed onto the wire, which means there are no hammer- or die-induced stresses. And they're reusable, so when you re-rig you only need to buy wire, not terminals." {Well, you need to buy new cones too, but they only cost a couple of bucks per terminal. - LS}

On my own C-25, when I replaced all the standing rigging, I used Sta-Lok swageless terminals and 316 alloy wire.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 20:52:36

Leon: I'm curious... It sounds like Sta-Lok is the best terminal--why don't I see the professional riggers using it? When I buy a set of standing rigging (probably next year), should I ask for it? What's the likely response?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2002 : 23:12:17

Dave,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It sounds like Sta-Lok is the best terminal--why don't I see the professional riggers using it?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I do see the pros using it more as time goes on. I hate to generalize about this sort of thing, but here goes... A large percentage of the owners rerigging boats the size of ours tend to be very cost concious. Typical parts price for a Sta-Lok 3/16"x3/8" eye is $26.30 (Defender, 2001) whereas a marine swage eye is $8.50 (West Marine, 2001). Professional installation labor is probably close to equal (I think I was quoted $5 or $10 per swage), except that swageless terminals can be installed by a determined hobbiest with next to no tools. I think even a cheap Kerney swager costs thousands, is at least truck-mounted, and requires specialized skills to operate correctly. I seem to remember one of those rotary swagers costs tens of thousands, and is a large serious machine shop tool (bolted to thick concrete floor, shakes the entire building, etc.).

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When I buy a set of standing rigging (probably next year), should I ask for it? What's the likely response?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes, ask. Expect "Yeah, we can do it that way if you want to pay more. I just assumed you wanted it done the cheapest way possible." Or just do it yourself at home like I did and save the labor costs entirely. I think it took me two weekday evenings to assemble an entire 8 piece gang, having never done anything like it before. There's a little more to it than I've mentioned, but not much. Brion Toss has an excellent video on Sta-Lok assembly. If cost is a big issue, use a spreadsheet to compare the available choices. If self-confidence is a big issue doing it at home, just dive right in. When I was done, I couldn't believe how good the results are, and how easy it had been.

-- Leon Sisson

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2002 : 13:12:14

Leon:

Good info! A few questions here...

Could you give a ballpark cost of your whole project, including wire? Did that include the forstay and backstay? Where did you buy your wire?

Does the rigging from Catalina Direct come with 'rotary swages' or 'Kearney swages'?

Does the original factory rigging have 'rotary swages' or 'Kearney swages'?

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Puff
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2002 : 17:57:15

UGH. thanks for the education. it seems my instincts were unfortunately, right. what a mess.

I echo RichardG's questions about the type of swages used by Catalina Direct.

I hope I can safely sail the bananna swages (15 knots or less) while I'm waiting for replacement rigging. I just got the mast up again after five looong weeks of repairs and projects.

Puff

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2002 : 19:17:02

RichardG (and others)<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Could you give a ballpark cost of your whole project, including wire?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>A mere 10 boatbucks, or $1,000. That includes all 8 long wires, 16 Sta-Loks, converting from single to split backstay (2 short wires w/rotory swaged eyes), 8 new open-body bronze/SS toggle/jaw-toggle/jaw turnbuckles, forestay toggle, misc. little stuff. Does not include upgrading chainplates, spreader bases, mast compression sleeves & bolts, etc.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Where did you buy your wire?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I got the Sta-Loks and extra strong 316 alloy wire from Brion Toss Rigging. Turnbuckles & toggle from Defender and West Marine (which ever had what in stock for less). Misc. little stuff from Banana River Marine (local chandlry).
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Does the rigging from Catalina Direct come with 'rotary swages' or 'Kearney swages'? ... Does the original factory rigging have 'rotary swages' or 'Kearney swages'?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Don't know - ask 'em.

-- Leon Sisson

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