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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Replacing Shrouds

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2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/22/2008 : 18:01:34

Well, Im getting ready to order everything for the big haul out but I have a simple question.

A friend of mine gave me a ton of "Good Old Boat" mags and I have been reading through them, 2002-2004 editions. Anyways, I stumbled across an article by something Brewer about yacht design and especially rigging. He talks about the 316 stainless being rust resistant more so than the original 304, BUT, at a cost. He breaks them down and as it turns out, 316 is something like 40% weaker! He was showing a comparison chart of different diameter 304 and 316 and their breaking loads, in some cases, 316 was almost a whole half lower on the breaking stress.

I dont think CD offers anything but the 316, should I be concerned at all by this? The article was a little blue water/cruiser oriented.

David
83 SR/FK #3341
Kemah Texas

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/28/2008 09:06:02

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 18:17:44

I have the CD replacement standing rigging, it is better than stock and I am very happy with it. I considered upgrading to better grade hardware and I am happy with what I chose.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 19:05:16

"I dont think CD offers anything but the 316, should I be concerned at all by this?"

No. The turnbuckles are the last thing that will break... other stuff will give way first.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 11:25:34

Something Brewer is Ted Brewer, a pretty established name in sailing. The strength factor is really an issue for designers. Higher strength allows smaller diameter and lighter rigging at a higher cost in dollars and maintenance. Most of us are better off choosing less maintenance and more weight (demonstrated by our aging bodies) and let the engineers choose the appropriate strength and consequent diameter.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 12:22:08

I agree with Dave and Frank--the designers seem to have kept our rigs up all these years (some people here have tested them very thoroughly), and CD's product is first-rate. The C-25 is not designed or rigged for blue-water use, regardless of the gauge or strength of the wire.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 15:01:44

I think the allowable stress of 316SS and 304SS is relative to just what safety of fsctor should be designed into the shrouds and then how much above that is the allowable stress of each SS grade. Generally, the corrosion rate has to do with certain elements in each grade and how much carbon is in each of those grade matls...but there is also 304L and 316L SS. They probably have lower allowable stresses than the above grades but the "L" specifically designates low carbon content...and therefore, generally better non-corrosive properties. If it corrodes slower or not at all, then if the allowable stress is half of the other SS grade but above what is deemed minimum acceptable stress required...then probably better than an initially stronger grade matl.

I have not looked into what is available for our boats but it may be that they standardize on 316 SS. So then just go with that.

The biggest factor is if in a saltwater environment. SS matl does not like seawater and especially stagnant seawater which could sit in the bottom of a cable crimped fitting.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 22:51:39

When I rerigged my C-25 a few years ago, I made up my own stays & shrouds. I did the calulations, and found the stock rigging size safety factors to be just about right for a coastal cruiser. I located some stock dia. 1x19 316 (from Brion Toss I think) which tested almost equal to typical 304/305. I used swageless terminals and bronze/316SS open body turnbuckles. So far, I'm still pleased with the results.

-- Leon S

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 21:04:40

I dont know why, but Im having second thoughts on the rigging. I keep getting a "bleh, it'll do" attitude about it because something tells me the 650 for all the rigging will somehow turn into 1K very fast for "extra" unforseen crap I will need. This weekend, I will do a very detailed investigation of my rigging, and actually try and tighten some of the turnbuckles. I do have rust on my swages though, and a kink in a lower

For those that used the catalinadirect stuff, was anything extra needed? Do I have to swage anything? What kind of tools will I need to buy?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 22:32:18

Check riggingonly.com

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 07:49:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 2far2drive
 I dont know why, but Im having second thoughts on the rigging. I keep getting a "bleh, it'll do" attitude about it because something tells me the 650 for all the rigging will somehow turn into 1K very fast for "extra" unforseen crap I will need. This weekend, I will do a very detailed investigation of my rigging, and actually try and tighten some of the turnbuckles. I do have rust on my swages though, and a kink in a lower

For those that used the catalinadirect stuff, was anything extra needed? Do I have to swage anything? What kind of tools will I need to buy?

I want this part of owning a boat overwith. The timing has to be perfect as I wasnt happy with the way my boom vang bails lined up so I have to order something else to make it work better. hauling out very very soon, end of march most likely.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The CD kit is complete. It takes about an hour to do the change over, you need a pair of needle nose pliers.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/28/2008 07:50:18

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 08:13:45

Our club uses a local rigger "The Rigging Shoppe" for all this stuff, and have found them to be first rate. If you require something a little different than the "Out of the box" stuff you might want to find a local and have them do up a quote. That should convince you to go to CD for your stuff.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:49:39

AS far as rigging goes CD has all the stuff needed. Consider swapping out the spreader brackets at the same time. Make sure you have the right rig size and correct aft stay.

If you are looking for the better stainless as mentioned above you can check with local riggers or in most cases your local sail loft.

Brion Toss posts infrequently on another board - I'll send out an invite to see if he would like to comment here. That sort of knowledge would be of great benefit to the group.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 10:16:08

Ohh, I forgot to mention, I do have the stainless spreader upgrade. I checked it last weekend and I do have the shiny brackets up there, thank God! 1 less thing to buy!

Im pricing things... this will be a hefty haulout....

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 10:51:53

Guys in the U.S., if you do buy from The Rigging Shoppe, be sure and remind him that direct mailing to the U.S. is exempt from the canadian VAT (tax). I bought my replacement motor mount from them (got very good service by the way), but I also got a bill from UPS for import duties, which I was not expecting. Just another reason that, if I had it to do over again, I would have bought the OEM replacement mount from CD.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:19:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ... I would have bought the OEM replacement mount from CD.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most of Catalina Direct isn't OEM. (not that it is bad quality, it most certainly is not.) It is a lot more difficult to equate OEM with boats, especially 25 year old boats out of production. Like almost everything with boats it is aftermarket. You could probably get the equivalent at a rigger locally.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:24:59

I replaced our lower shrouds using CD supplied materials. We had a problem with length that resulted in me having to add toggles to all of the lowers to get proper fit and adjustment.
CD was helpful and confirmed the measurements on the new lowers were their standard for our boat. They also conceded that there is some variation that can occur boat to boat that probably accounted for the fit issue.

I was able to get the forward lowers on with full thread engagement but the aft lowers were 1.5 inches short. I ended up with toggles on all of the lowers to give me the adjustment range and engagement needed. If this had occured on the uppers or either of the stays I would have been very unhappy.

Needless to say I will have the uppers and stays custom made when I replace them next month. Not faulting CD but it appears the off the shelf, one size fits all approach may have some issues at times.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 13:21:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug C.
 I replaced our lower shrouds using CD supplied materials. We had a problem with length that resulted in me having to add toggles to all of the lowers to get proper fit and adjustment.
CD was helpful and confirmed the measurements on the new lowers were their standard for our boat. They also conceded that there is some variation that can occur boat to boat that probably accounted for the fit issue.

I was able to get the forward lowers on with full thread engagement but the aft lowers were 1.5 inches short. I ended up with toggles on all of the lowers to give me the adjustment range and engagement needed. If this had occured on the uppers or either of the stays I would have been very unhappy.

Needless to say I will have the uppers and stays custom made when I replace them next month. Not faulting CD but it appears the off the shelf, one size fits all approach may have some issues at times.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is exactly what Im worried about. I have 1 3-4 day weekend to pull this off with the boat out of the water. I dont want to jack with the mast in my marina. and not to mention, my boat is getting hauled out some 3 hours south in the bay, (no yards in the Kemah area allow you to do your own work) so if the rigging is short or wrong, I will have a heck of a time getting my boat back to the marina until correct parts come in. I guess I can premeasure this weekend and compare with catalina. Is there any way to measure the uppers and lowers without taking them off and without a bosuns chair?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 13:59:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Guys in the U.S., if you do buy from The Rigging Shoppe, be sure and remind him that direct mailing to the U.S. is exempt from the canadian VAT (tax). I bought my replacement motor mount from them (got very good service by the way), but I also got a bill from UPS for import duties, which I was not expecting. Just another reason that, if I had it to do over again, I would have bought the OEM replacement mount from CD.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you sure it was an import duty and not UPS's "Brokerage fees"? We get dinged with them all the time when brining things across the border this way. Its nice to see that UPS treat all customers equally badly.

Edited to add:
Rigging Sjhoppe Does have good service, but CD actually referred me to another supplier when I gave them my address. They knew about the duties I'd be hit with and reasoned that my order was too small to make it worthwhile given the fees we'd encounter thanks to UPS/Fedex.

Edited by - Prospector on 02/28/2008 14:04:07

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 16:47:53

Perhaps import duty is the wrong term; it may have been more associated with currency translation. At any rate, on a trans. approx. $280 U.S., the UPS fee, which I was not advised of in advance (my fault for not knowing better) added about $25 to the deal.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 17:11:24

I used to work for FedEx. These are Canadian customs fees and agent fees.

They literally have books (fedex, dhl, and ups) of all the countries in the world they ship to and what is allowed and what is the process. Trust me, countries (ANY OF THEM) can be quite ridiculous when it comes to this. We got a new manual EVERY month as that is how often countries like to change what is allowed and not allowed.

For example, I had to fill out customs forms for India just to ship some business cards. I had to enter declared values and and they were taxed on the $30 set of biz cards we shipped. Thats just how it goes. A couple had to pay like $30 in customs fees to send a teddy bear to china. Some countries (India for instance) would not allow items like, Burned cds, or items made of wierd metals.

Fedex, DHL, and UPS arnt really to blame. If there is an agent fee, thats because they literally had to employ a person to stand/live there and deal with the red tape of customs to import the items, often in their local language.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 07:26:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 2far2drive
 A couple had to pay like $30 in customs fees to send a teddy bear to china. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which Ironically was probably made there in the first place

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 08:21:19

The one that killed it for me was when I bought a camera lens for around $80, then paid $30 for shipping and got a brokerage fee from UPS for $60 at my doorstep.

Incidentally, if you have items shipped through USPS (or Canada Post, I assume), there will be no brokerage fees. I have also been told (by UPS when I called and ranted) that if you pay for air freight they won't hit you with the extras. Haven't put that to the test though.

Back on topic... Shrouds may not have fit your boat because there are discrepancies to the originals. Case in point... My companionway trim pieces are over an inch different in length between the port and starboard. I would measure before ordering.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 09:58:56

I think a biggie for the lowers is the location of the spreaders. I doubt very much that they worry about a tolerance of less than 2" when installing the bracket on the mast, which would make a real problem for shroud length.

Edited by - on

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