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Propane Hose Question

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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/25/2008 : 15:25:59

Most of you know that I am installing a 16 oz propane bottle in the galley of our 1985 C25. Rather than use the brass tubing connector that is supplied to the stove, I would like to connect a flexible hose directly to the stove connector, then put the 16 oz. bottle at the other end. Doing this would mean I would not have to drill a hole in the divider between the galley and the port settee. I could run the flexible hose to a better area where the small propane bottle would fit better.

Mike
Grand Lake, OK
N.O. Catalina 25 #4849
In my opinion 75% of the earth is water for a reason. That's why I sail.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 18:14:27

I'd worry about loss of volume to the hose. I wouldn't want to store propane in the cabin. Connecting the smaller bottle as the stove is designed each time you use it would be, IMO, safer.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 18:24:53

I would tend to agree with John. Keeping a 16 oz. bottle connected in the cabin at the end of the hose may lead to a safety issue. However if I read you right, you want to attach the hose to avoid cutting a hole. As long as you have a regulator between the bottle and hose that should not be a problem. The regulator may be a integral part of the stove, or not. When done with the stove you should disconnect the bottle. Cheap insurance.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 19:40:29

No boat should ever, EVER have the propane source installed inside the cabin or in a location that is in any way open to the bilge. Get professional help, or check with your insurance carrier to see if you'll still be covered. This is at least as much of a life-and-death issue as lightning protection and a lot of the other stuff we worry about here.

Resident Curmudgeon

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/25/2008 19:47:35

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 21:02:53

<font size="1">Quote: "This is at least as much of a life-and-death issue as lightning protection and a lot of the other stuff we worry about here."

Resident Curmudgeon</font id="size1">

Worse! You have time to deal, issue a MayDay, or whatever with every type of incident possible EXCEPT FIRE! If you are fire you have no time! Explosions would be even worse. A pound of propane in your bilge carries a big punch. If you must store propane on your boat it should be in a vented locker - or there have been those who created homemade tubes made of pvc pipe and affixed them to the stern rail.

A proper propane installation needs a solenoid and a switch installed in the galley to turn the propane on and off. Furthermore, your stove probably does not have typical marine stove safety features like thermocoupler that controls flow to each burner insuring that it is lit and hot before allowing you to adjust flame. This is not a do it yourself project on a C25 as you would need to do a lot of fiberglass work to make it safe. You need another stove.

On Zephyr, we used a 3 burner camp stove we bought from REI and we would disconnect the bottle after each use and return it to the starboard seat compartment thingy - which was useless otherwise. on our '82 we could store 3 bottles there.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine FL

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 08:28:07

For those that are concerned about the set up, I agree with your concern. We are planning to not store the bottles in the cabin or bilge. They will go in the fuel locker which is vented. The bottle will only be connected when the stove is in use and we don't plan on using it for anything but cooking. Not for heat as some might think and the hatch boards will be removed when we do use it.

For those that are concerned. With respect, I started posting this modification in our galley over 2 weeks ago. Nary a word about what I was doing until now. We used to have a cabin cruiser with an alcohol stove and while it worked, it was a curtain burner.

The reason I am looking for a hose is so that I can attach to bottle without putting any strain on the set up, and take the bottle off after each use and stow it away. That is not to say that I won't consider all of the input here... I will.

Edited by - cat1951 on 02/26/2008 08:37:40

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 08:52:01

Mike,

I think the stove mod is a great one. I didn't mean to offend. It was my assumption as I read about the mod that you would use the stove as designed with the bottle directly attached and remove the bottle to a safe storage area when not in use.

The concern about the bilge isn't that you'd store the bottles there but rather the fact that propane is heavier than air and will settle to the bilge and not vent in the absence of good air circulation. That's true even with the companionway boards off. That's why the propane installations have so many safeguards to prevent the flow of propane when there is no flame. Finally, my comment about the volume loss in the hose was simply that there's not a lot of volume in the 1 Lb. bottles so if you use a lot of hose, you'll not have as much fuel to cook with.

Anyway, I think that the conversion to a propane stove from alcohol is a great mod. I just wouldn't "mod" the propane stove much.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:00:43

It seems to me that a blower would solve the propane settling issues, wouldn't it?

When we got into sailing, we were advised that butane is a safer alternative than propane and duly went about replacing all our propane camping gear with butane sailing gear. Now that I've done a little research, I see that butane is propane with additives. Is there any real advantage to butane over propane?

As for the stove mod, I also had thought of the propane pooling issue, but was sure that you were either instaling a blower or making sure that the fittings etc. were all marine approved and inspected. I know that is a costly option. I personally prefer not having a fixed stove on board for a couple reasons:
- portability for shore lunches
- clean-up
- repairs

Our boat came fitted with a microwave, which we will likely not use since we don't have shore power at our slip, but we may leave it in place and store the portable butane stove and accoutrements inside it. Then if we are cruising and do get shore power we will still have the option of a quicker cooker. For now its just as easy for us to haul the stove out to the cockpit and make dinner there.

I think your mod is a good one for you and your family, I am sure you will do it as safely as you can!

Edited by - Prospector on 02/26/2008 09:01:30

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:08:48

The bilge blower idea is a good one. That is another mod that I will make. We did the same thing on our cruiser because of gasoline that can end up in the bilge. I am very well informed as to the difference between alcohol and propane/butane and intend to be very careful. As said, I don't plan to keep the bottle attached except when cooking. I am also re-doing the electrical panel this Summer and will add a bilge fan to the AUX switch. Once installed, it will be on during any propane bottle attachment, removal, and during cooking.

Prospector... As far as being mobile, the stove is removable and not hard. I have the stove mounted to the counter top, but the countertop sits in place just like the cutting board top we have now. All that would need to be done is remove the brass tubing connector to the stove and lift it out. It's just that the counter top will come out with it. Not really a bad deal anyway.

I do appreciate all of the input and do take the safety issue seriously.

Edited by - cat1951 on 02/26/2008 09:16:02

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 14:58:28

Arlyn Stewart, a long-time C250 owner and Tech Editor uses propane bottles on his boat. Like others here have suggested, and you affirmed, when not in use he puts them outside. I think your mod looks great. The concern people expressed is because they care about you. I don't think they they knew where the propane source would be. Everything we do on these small boats is a trade-off. We have a propane locker on the C250 and that is great but it eats up some serious lazarette space! My .02 is that you don't need a bilge blower for your application.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/26/2008 14:59:28

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:09:40

I agree with Randy. The bilge blower will likely be too much. Air circulation is important but that can be accomplished with less effort than installing a blower.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:59:58

Well one of my projects this year is to add 3 cabin fans in the main cabin. It gets quite warm sleeping on the boat in the summer here. More than likely they will be on when we try to cook. I can't imagine not having them on when trying to cook in the mid to late summer months.

And I do appreciate the concern and those caring about my good health. I guess when you use the written word, it is sometimes hard to convey all of those things you have been going over in your head constantly. I have been considering this project for 2 years and do feel I will be taking the right steps to keep us safe.

On another note, we are not ones to anchor in a cove and spend the night. Since we are lake sailors most of our overnights will be in our slip at the marina.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2008 : 20:09:58

I'm in the middle of a conversion from a compressed natural gas system to propane in my Ericson. What a lot of work to do it safe, and according to the AYBC standards. I'm wiring up a solenoid, and also a propane sniffer to the control panel. The stove also has a thermocouple inherent in it's design too. The standards call for a 1/2" vent hose going directly overboard from the bottom of your propane locker too.
Those small bottles can leak gas even after they are disconnected too. I had one do this on my Magma grill once. Therefore I'm hooking up a gas manifold with a tee and ball valve to feed the magma grill off the main tank.
Dont forget to use gas tight fittings to run your hose through any bulkheads too.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:53:00

Hmm... Thanks Frank, that gives me more to think about. As far as the small bottles leaking, I wonder if one can get a screw cap to reseal the bottle's valve after its first use. It would seem to me that the leaking would be more prevelant after the bottle is used for the first time. Otherwise, I can expect our local Walmart to lose its roof someday. They have stacks of these bottles in the store.

I also like the idea of a thermal coupler and I know that the stove I am using does not. I feel comfortable storing the bottles in the fuel locker which on our C25 is in the aft port portion of the cockpit. Venting would be an easy project. Afterall, if the fumes are heavier than air, they should disperse through the scuppers for the cockpit... and any leakage should disperse in the atmosphere very readily.

The stove only cost about $60.00 so I am not out a lot of cash so replacing it would not be too difficult. The issue is finding one that is small enough to fit in the space, and have all the extras that have been mentioned.

Edited by - cat1951 on 02/27/2008 07:56:14

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 08:26:15

Mike,
The problem with propane bottles after use is that corrosion sets in at some point and might jam the valve open. Has happened to us. I solved teh problem by spraying WD-40 liberally after first use and saving the caps - those white ones - and just reaplying them. BTW - home depot sells canisters generally cheaper than anyone else. You can also use the long skinny ones like they use for torches and such. I found an adapter at Cabelas in kansas that allows you to refill the small bottles from a big propane bottle. I think it is illegal in some states, but certainly changes the cost of propane and allows reuse of the bottle. Just fill it up at home and MAKE SURE the valve is closed. If one ever gets stuck, you'll need to press in on it quickly with something like a screwdriver to reset it. Once one leaks, let it go after using it. Be aware of that tank during the whole time - or simply purge and dispose.

On Zephyr, we used propane for cooking and for heating. Those little heaters (with safety features built in) are awesome for a small boat. While we were careful when changing tanks, we did smell propane a couple of times and I would freak out. But your bilge fan might be overkill. That being said, I also considered it.

sten

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 08:35:16

Thanks Sten, I will remember the WD40 on each valve. I have seen the refillable kit, and while I am sure it is ok to use the same tank for a short while, I am very particular when it comes to propane tanks. I have 2 of my own, and never use the propane tank swaps that are at a lot of stores now. I know how my valves have been handled, I know how many times I have filled the tank and what environment it has been under. I have no clue on the swapped tanks. I guess being a old scuba diver makes me very particular in the tank area. I just don't trust refilling the small tanks...although there is probably nothing wrong with the practice.

Just did some checking online and found this stove.

http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=97831F

I think it will fit in the space that I have in the galley. Only drawback that I see is it costs 10 times more than what I am installing. Not that safety has a price, but I wonder how much each meal will cost taking into account the amount spent on this stove and its hook ups? I could go out a lot ... and then when I reached the cost of the stove, buy a bigger boat that already has one.

Edited by - cat1951 on 02/27/2008 09:29:26

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2008 : 22:09:25

Hmmm... I installed an Origo alcohol $tove a few years before selling Passage... I guess each pot of coffee cost me over $25.

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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 08:07:16

Yeah, you really don't want to figure the expense in "unit cost" or you could be disappointed. It's like spending $1,000 on fishing equipment and catching 2 bass.

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