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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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How Does Swing Keel & Jiffy Reef Work?

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Old Disco Queen
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/27/2008 : 20:39:08

1. How many cranks does it take to fully lower the swing keel on my Cat 25 (1983)? What position do you recommend it to me in when sailing under different conditions? I am sailing on Illinois River in Peoria and it can be shallow at times. will she turn over if keel is not all the way down?

2. I have heard that some people prefer using just the Genoa (without the main) to sail the 25. What do you think?

3. I have studied the Jiffy Reef diagram in the Cat 25 Parts Manuel to try and figure out how it works. I am sure I am just being a newbie, but, is it "1" line or "2" lines? Do you put a knot behind the sails (through the gromets) or does the line run across the back of the boom horozontally? There appears to be not reefing lines on my sail. Do you tuck it is somehow when you reef?

4. HAVE BEEN HAVING TROUBLE with my 9.9 outboard. Everytime I go over a wave it lifts up out of the water and makes a hell of a noise. Guess I should have bought a longer shaft (it is regular). Can I lower the mounting board so that it sits deeper in the water?

5. Need a new rudder. Anyone used that "kick up": rudder from catalina direct? Anyone have a used one that wont cost so much.

6. Any ideas on keeping wasps out of the boat? Do you use moth balls?

Stephen J. Moore

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 21:49:26

1. It depends how much cable is on the winch (diameter of wraps) most seem to say 20 -25. I lower it until slack and then crank in until it is snug (hums at about 4 kts), it is usually about 22 - 24 turns.

2. The Cat does get most of its power from the headsail, but under nearly all non teeth gritting conditions, you will have better balance with both sails up. It is also pretty difficult to point high on the wind with only a headsail.

3. I'll have to look at the diagram again.

4. The old owners manual say that a standard shaft is not preferred, but it can be used. G. W. Bush says he is an environmentalist. I have, and most others too, a 25" or extra long shaft. I am considering a long shaft (20"), but I think my research will rule it out. Lowering the engine enough for a 15" shaft to be reliably submerged puts you at high risk of swamping the engine. Measure from the top of the engine mounting plate to the bottom of your transom - 17" max for standard and 22" for a long shaft will just put the cavitation plate in the water.

5. Pearl has a previous owners attempt at a kick up; it works, its heavy, its unattractive, and it is on my futures list.

6. I have heard that mothballs help, but do your best to limit access. Paper wasps and mud daubers tend to build new nests near where they emerged. Fog the boat and leave closed overnight and thoroughly clean out all nests. Do it again in the fall.

7. Opinions and your milage may may vary.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 21:51:05

1. 21 cranks. IMHO - keel should be down almost all of the time. Raise it when necesary. Weight is still under the boat even when the keel is up, so you'd still be okay. I only raise mine when I run-aground

and when I launch and retrieve.
2. these are mast-head sail boats, so yes, sailing with just the head sail (genoa or jib or foresail) will be fine on most points of sail and in most conditions. Sailing with just the Main sail is unsatisfactory. Experiment with it, these are very forgiving boats.
3.Reefing can be one line or two, and can be single and/or double reefed. My 1981 Main sail has grommets for single reef or double reef. Flake the reefed part of the sail onto the boom. Some sails have sail ties to make it neater. There are many different ways to rig reefing.
4.Long shaft or Extra long shaft is best.
5.Kick-up rudders have been reported to be very good. Try the 'Swap Meet' for a used Rudder.
6.Sail fast.

There are lots of old threads and topics that you can and should research. Try the search function.

Welcome to the group. Post some pictures of your boat - you may recieve better answers when you ask questions that includes pics.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 22:12:38

I forgot the rest of #1. As stampeder says, down unless aground (or retrieve/launch). The only possible benefit of raising it would be running downwind in very light air when you might see a very slight speed increase in very calm water, but not worth the effort. In any other situation you would be a little worse than a wing.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 05:53:18

I never tie reef lines to the boom for a single reef. The only reason to do it is if the extra sailcloth gets in your way. The cringles for reef ties aren't reinforced to withstand stress. Often, when they're tied by different crew, one crew ties it tight and another ties it loose, so the one cringle that's tied tight takes all the stress. I've seen 3-4 mainsails torn that way. A loose-footed mainsail is better, because you don't tie it to the boom. You tie the reef ties around the foot of the sail.

Sailing on the mainsail alone is slow, unless you have a ton of wind. In that case, it works fairly well. The boat can sail to weather and tack reasonably well. In light to moderate wind, you can sail on a 130-155 jib alone, but not on a smaller headsail. With a smaller jib, the boat won't tack or sail to windward well. Personally, I only sail on genoa alone when I'm only sailing downwind, or when it's oppressively hot and I don't want to expend the effort to raise both sails and to put the mainsail away later. A sloop is designed to use two sails, and that's the way it sails best.

You might be able to fabricate a lower mounting board for your outboard motor. I did it once, so I could use a small, short-shaft dinghy motor on my boat while my regular motor was being repaired, and it worked. If you sail in bigger waves, then there's a considerable risk of swamping the motor, but if the water is fairly smooth, and you just use the motor to get you in and out of the marina, it should be ok. Try it carefully. Make sure the motor has a safety chain, in case your modified mounting board breaks.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:03:24

At our lake the best wasp preventer is a bug strip, not just any bug strip, THE bug strip. The serious bug strips are made for barns and stables, we buy them at "The Tractor Supply Store" however you may need to find them at some other farm supply. They are in a yellow plastic shell and hang. me I just use a tarp to cover my cabin an I get no leaks and no bugs. If your wasp problem is in your sails, spars or other places around the outside of your boat the answer is to sail more often.

Edited by - on

Joel37027
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:38:12

I agree, we find that a sealed cabin with the tarp over it hold in the fumes of the bug strip and keeps the interior bug free. If only I had something for the external spiders and birds (Blue Herons are the worst).

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 10:44:32

Stephen, If you have the original alcohol stove, be sure to check under it as well. When I pulled ours, I found an old dobbert nest the size of 2 golf balls.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:51:56

I am aching to hear the story behind 'Old Disco Queen'

Do tell

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 19:21:53

Me Too!

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 11:52:55

RE: outboard motor in and out

I have the same problem with a long shaft. What I have found is when the wind kicks up enough to create swell large enough for the motor to do the "in/out" thing-- I can sail into weather faster than the motor will take me. I realize it's a bad sound and wonder how long the motor will last doing that-- so I just kill it and sail

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 11:54:18

(oh, for me it's about 28-30 cranks) always leave it down

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/29/2008 : 21:33:05

I have seen destroyers with their screws out of the water, the right seas will do it to any boat.
The longer shaft gives you a little more range in sea state, but only those five inches. As for horsepower, conventional wisdom holds to 9.9, but I believe 8 is plenty. At 1/2 throttle with my 9.9, the stern squats and the prop cavitates but the hull speed limit has been reached. I was crossing Santa Rosa Sound today in a pretty fair chop, the extra hp was useless.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2008 : 14:20:34

Sunny skies and the temp's up to 58 here in Nashville, same forecast for tomorrow. I may get the new o/b on this weekend. Oh, La, La.

Edited by - on

Joel37027
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2008 : 16:23:16

I have a new Mercury 8hp long shaft. For a boat on an inland lake it is all I need and the 4 cycle is smooth as silk.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2008 : 19:22:25

Hey Joel, welcome to the forum. The new o/b I was referring to is a Nissan 9.8, extra long shaft, elec. start. They didn't have an 8 with elec start and the 25" shaft, or I would have gotten the 8 also.

Do old CD's strung out on a string across the top of the boom have any effect on the blue herrons? I've heard that the reflections from the shiny surface scares birds.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/01/2008 19:25:41

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2008 : 21:07:57

I have heard good reports for short term benefits. Unfortunately or mariners, numerous studies have shown birds' brains to be very adept at categorizing threats making almost any deterrent a short term solution. For perching birds, a piece of nearly invisible monofilament fishing line strung 1/4" above the spreaders (and boom, if possible) seems to have longer term value. So string your cds, and when they quit working, try something else like disposable aluminum pie pans. I suspect a large great blue heron goes wherever it chooses. I saw one last year while kayaking that was about 5 feet tall.

Edited by - on

Joel37027
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2008 : 17:00:19

Yes tying a line of any type slightly above the boom does help. I take my hat off to the guy in our club who installed a solar panel to power an electrical wire grid over his deck. Nothing works as well as voltage.

If your boat has ever been hit by a Blue Herron it is unbeleavible. We call Blur Herron's "cement mixers" because their crap looks like cement and is that hard to get off. Last year I have one lay 4 eggs in my sail cover. One fell out an fried on my starboard cockpit bench. The others rolled out an broke on the deck of the cockpit when I began to take the cover off the boom. What a mess.

I will give the fishing line and CD suggestions a try. Thanks

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2008 : 19:30:38

Joel can you take any Pix of the Solar "Zapper" I like that idea and it sounds as if you set it and forget it.

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Joel37027
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2008 : 08:19:34

Bob, no it is my understanding that the electrical wires what make up the grid over the boom and lifelines has to be unplugged and stored each time you go aboard. It can not stay in place when you are using the boat.

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2008 : 18:23:26

Ok Thanks. I am relatively lazy and one more thing to setup and stow is not what i need.

I have been fighting the birds by visiting the boat at lunch (I have even arranged meetings on board) and hosing her down once a day. So that will have to work.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:26:30

#3 In "Jiffy" reefing (I think this is a misnomer at best) the lines run like this: At the end of the boom on, let's say, the port side of the boom (could start on either side) the end of the reefing line is attached. It then runs up through the clew grommet at the reef line in the sail and down to a cheek block on the other side of the boom. From there it runs to another cheek block on the same side of the boom but up by the goose neck, so the reefing line is running parallel to the boom here. From this block it turns upward and runs through the tack grommet at the reef line in the sail. Then from there down the other side of the sail to either a cleat on the boom or mast or somewhere (BIG boats lead this line aft to the cockpit which is nice because then you can do all this from the comfort of the cockpit). So after you ease the main halyard you pull on this one reefing line. This pulls down on both the tack and clew of the sail at the reefing grommets at the same time because it is all one line.
It is important that you place the aft boom line attachment point and cheek block BEHIND where the reef clew grommet will end up on the boom. This is because if you are going to be reefing, you are going to want a flat sail and you get this by pulling the foot of the sail tight. If the attachment point and cheek block are too far forward, you can't get this back-pulling action with the reef line.
On other boats there is a hook (rams horn) on the gooseneck that allows you to hook the reef tack grommet onto thereby holding this corner securely. But I have not seen this on Cat 25 rigs. Maybe someone else has?

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Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 00:41:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I forgot the rest of #1. As stampeder says, down unless aground (or retrieve/launch). The only possible benefit of raising it would be running downwind in very light air when you might see a very slight speed increase in very calm water, but not worth the effort. In any other situation you would be a little worse than a wing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know this is an older thread but I thought I would put in my two cents worth. There has been little wind here in Northern California, but beautiful weather. So we have been out using the Iron Jib quite a bit and I have found almost a full knot's speed increase if I pull the Keel up when under auxillary power. Just something I noticed that I thought I would pass along.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 05:23:23

I also notice an increase in speed when I sail out of my marina during the weedy weeks with the keel up. If the keel is down, all the weeds wrap around, which causes the boat to slow.

The darn weeds even wrap around the rudder.

Pulling up the keel is a judgment call depending on conditions.

There are my two cents,
Deric

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 08:00:00

Speaking of weeds, during our seasonal blooms, I've found going "hove to" will produce a backwash effect that will help clear the rudder without having to get the boathook out, although sometimes the mass is so large it needs extra help. The worst thing about the seaweed on my old swinger was when a huge mass would entangle itself around my keel cable requiring an impromptu swim call to remove the big ball so I could again sail above 1.5kts or even raise my keel. Fortunately for me, the seaweed blooms occur when the water temps are on the warmer side.

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