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heeling over

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/07/2008 : 17:08:08

how far will a cat 25 swing keel, Heel over before I tip her,
in other words, how stupid would I have to be to tip her over,, (wife is concerned)
taking sailing lessons soon, so I hope I dont have that problem

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 17:18:36

That is a very good question!

I have a fin keel and I have pushed her kind of hard on that area and what I found that is in 15+ steady with gusts to MAYBE 20 (probly more like 18) I would heel eccessivly and would have to fight the (lee or weather I dont know the difference) helm considerably to keep her from rounding up. I remember having too hands on the riller and I had it turned at least 45 degrees trying to hold a straight line. Now, I know Im going to get bashed for this. I know it was neither fast or comfortable, but I found it particularly fun. I could have done all those nifty tricks to make her get back on her feet, but I was having too much fun like that to care. Now had a stronger gust hit me? Maybe I would have gone over. But I have a quick hand and when Im over that far, its always on the mainsheet ready to dump and Im ready to steer straight into the wind!

Anyways, I think it would take a lot, but past 45 degrees, I would think is getting into no mans land on a good gust. But, then again, I just learned to sail 3 months ago so what do i know?

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 17:21:36

here, watch this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=whSHw4k2yLo

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:23:40

My C25 was tuned well, and, if I had the right balance of sails, she didn't develop a terrible amount of weather helm when she heeled excessively. On numerous occasions I sailed her, grossly overpowered, just for the fun of it, and, as the windspeed increased, she would heel more and more until the rudder finally pulled clear of the water, and she'd lie there on her side until either the wind abated, or until I eased the mainsheet. If it got to that point very quickly, she'd take a pretty good dollop of water over the gunwale, but if she went over more gradually, it would stay dry. On 2-3 occasions, I had my hand on top of the winch, and got my watch wet.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:32:41

This was a question my Admiral asked when we first started sailing our Swing Keel C25.
The only thing she has ever read on this forum, were the responses to this very question.
To tip a C25 over, you would have to be in an extraordinary set of circumstances - the bottom line being, you would have to be hit by a very large wave just as you were broaching.
No doubt somebody here can think of a set of circumstances in which you'd go over but the reality is, these boats are very safe and to my knowledge, no-one has rolled one over. At least no-one has reported doing so.
That said, it can be done.
We sailed in 25+ knot winds and did our best to bury the rail so we could get some good photos. It was fun and gave us a lot more confidence in the boat.
When you heel over too far, a lot of the rudder comes out of the water, eventually causing the boat to round up. (head to wind)
As you gain confidence, you will enjoy the stability of your boat and no doubt you will hear the paniced words "too far too far" when you heel over too far.
My Admiral is no longer afraid of heeling, and quite enjoys it now.
Your sailing venue will have a lot to do with whether or not you can slap the water with your mast.
If you can, have a competent sailor go out with you the first time or two. And of course, until you are competent and comfortable with your own abilities, sail during good weather.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 21:27:40

We have knocked down with the spinnaker while racing and no one got wet. The C25 TR SK gave us about 8 seconds and up she came and we held our first place position. As the helmsman and the rudder out of the water I got to watch the fleet behind us and second place did the same thing. It does make a mess of the cabin but my sister is there to repack the spinnaker so she was busy. Oh yes always have the porta potty tied down.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 21:28:31

Like Stampeder's, my Admiral learned to appreciate heel as evidence that we were moving nicely, as opposed to "slatting" in dead air... it took a while. Our previous boat was an O'Day Daysailer, and that was definitely capable of capsizing if caught by a gust. What I knew and my wife learned, was that the C-25 with (in your case) 1500 lbs. of ballast down low, can literally go to 90 degrees and come back up.

One thing to try to internalize is that as the boat heels, the force on the sails diminishes. So in even extreme winds (40-50 knots), she might go WAY over, but she'll reach a point where she won't go further. What can spoil that is a BIG wave, but reasonable caution will prevent you from experiencing all of that.

I recommend this: With an experienced sailor on board, go out on a really blustery day and let him/her show you how hard it is to bury the rail as the boat reaches equilibrium and/or rounds up into the wind. If the latter, you might want to think about balancing the rig a little (tip the mast back)... although rounding up in extreme conditions is not the worst outcome.

The net is, a proper keelboat doesn't "capsize" in wind. It might "broach"--meaning put the mast down and then come back up, which isn't pleasant... but that's an extreme outcome. The rudder and mainsheet can easily prevent it, and in most reasonable (even if windy) conditions, it just won't happen. She might go to 40 degrees (which feels like a lot), but she rarely goes further.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/07/2008 21:32:03

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 10:27:56

THIS IS STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A SCENE OUT OF EXTREME SPORTS. I ALWAYS TRIED TO SAIL UPRIGHT WHILE AT MAXIMUM SPEED. WHERE'D I GO WRONG?

VAL ON THE HARD DAGNABIT, #3936, PATCHOGUE, N.Y.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 10:42:35

Of coures, Val... but beginners worry about things they don't yet fully understand. IMHO, the best way to become confident, at an emotional as well as an intellectual level, that a boat won't "tip over" is (1) to learn how to control the tipping, and then (2) to actually try to bury the rail. Then you can both sail upright and be comfortable that even some unexpected situations aren't going to leave you swimming.

Another important lesson is how to avoid jibing, including doing a 270 instead. Then, when and how to jibe safely. The lessons will undoubtedly cover those things.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 11:31:53

how about this shot from the "Crew of 2 Around Catalina"

Probably about 40 degrees of heel with my 135% jib up, 20 miles offshore, helm slightly to weather, no excessive weather helm, I am smiling because I was in first place.

Its virtually impossible to capsize a C25 unless you are out in waves above about 12 feet with winds over 25 knots.

As the boat heels, the winds force on the sails is lessened and the restoring force of gravity that is pulling the keel to be pointing straight down increases the "moment arm", the restoring force. The restoring force is at its maximum at 90 degrees of heel (ie. mast and spreaders in the water). After that it lessens. There is no restoring force when the keel is straight up. There is something called the stability curve for all boats. That means, how far can it heel before it won't come back up? For your Catalina 25 that is probably about 125 degrees. That means the mast deep under water.

What will happen is, after you heel over about 45 to 50 degrees the boat will round up. This can be frightening, especially if your admiral is at the helm and you don't know what is going on. When you get used to it it can be fun to stay right at the edge of that point. Rounding up is when the rudder is pulled so much out of the water you lose steering. Since a well designed boat has weather helm, it turns to windward, stops heeling and stops going through the water. Nice safety feature, huh? A boat with lee helm will round down, not nearly so safe or fun. Let go of your helm headed upwind under light conditions. Does the bow turn upwind or down? If down, loosen your forestay and forward lowers, tighten up backstay and aft lowers to tilt the mast back a couple of inches thus restoring your designed weather helm.

If you are heading downwind, you can be blown and knocked into a broach, also can be fun to surf waves and keep the boat right on the edge of this. I love to do this on a windy day with big steep waves. Once again, this can be scary to the newbie because you lose control.

Install a inclinometer (reads your angle of heel). When you are consistently above 30 to 35 start taking actions to reduce heel.

tighten halyards
tighten outhaul
put traveller down
dump main in gusts
reef

Edited by - JimB517 on 03/08/2008 23:34:29

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 11:59:13

Jim I'd love to sail with you with that presentation. Yes it's ok to heel and sail right down the line. Wearing or the chicken jibe can be used when the winds are overpowering the sails and your crew is nervous. I still have on my list to sail my Snowbird in SD again.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 14:44:33

A couple of weeks ago we had my C25 out in 18-20, gusting higher. My sailing buddies own a Cal 33 and a J-27. Flying my "new" 110 jib and what is probably the original main we were able to balance the boat so that she rode at around 15-20 degrees of heel with a rudder so perfectly balanced that I had to harden up the main a little just to get some weather helm. I have no knotmeter or GPS, but experience would tell me that I was sailing about as fast as she was going to go in those conditions. I confess that I was astonished at how beatifully she behaved. The guy with the J-27 was downright envious. We all know that just for fun I could have buried the rail with a little more tension on the mainsheet, and I confess that 30 years ago I would have. We all have to learn what the limits are so that we know where we are within those limits. Then, when you get to be an old grandmother like me, you can sail her as easily as you like and nobody can gripe about it.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 17:18:15

I thought of another thing that gave my Admiral comfort with heeling. She learned what could be done to lessen it.
The first on her list is the main sheet - so when she would get nervous she would suggest letting out the mainsheet. Over time she got more sophisticated about sail control.
My objective then became staying ahead of her on the learing curve. Now, I'd say we're at about the same point in terms of sailing knowledge.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 20:54:46

And be sure the admiral sits on the high side, it is much less creepy

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 21:13:43

please excuse my ignorance, but what do you people mean when you all keep referring to "admiral' as I mentioned I am new to sailing, so I havent heard that term used,,,lol

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 21:31:45

Is there a lady on your boat?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 21:36:07

The longer expression goes something like this:

I am the Captain of my ship. My WIFE is the ADMIRAL of the Fleet!

You clearly know who is really in charge.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 23:31:42

I am surprised that no one pointed out that the force of gravity on the keel doesn't increase as the boat heels, of course what increases is the "moment arm" or the restoring force which is somewhat like a lever that pushes the boat back upright.

My friend has a Cal 27 which is much stiffer and faster than my C25 but it has a ton of weather helm, so much so that it is physically exhausting to hold the tiller in any kind of blow. It is also a wet boat.

I love the way my C25 SR Fin Keel is designed. Nicely balanced under sail in all winds, light on the tiller, just the right amount of freeboard to be a dry boat.

Edited by - JimB517 on 03/08/2008 23:36:46

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 04:34:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 please excuse my ignorance, but what do you people mean when you all keep referring to "admiral' as I mentioned I am new to sailing, so I havent heard that term used,,,lol
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You'll quickly learn who's the Admiral on your first few sails. The Admiral is a nifty little contraption replacing sophisticated highly priced gadgetry rendering all sorts of data.

HEELING INDICATOR:
15-20 degrees of heel: Admiral looking nervous on verge of saying something.
25 degrees of heel: Admiral ordering you to ease down.
>30 degrees of heel: Admiral starts making high pitched screeching noises.

MAINSHEET TENSION INDICATOR:
Not sure if you got too much tension on that main sheet? No worries mate, the Admiral quickly figures out the relationship between heel and mainsheet tension. After a quick computation, the order to ease the main sheet will be given out way before you even think about it.

WATER BALLAST and GAS TANK FILL INDICATOR:
Afraid that you might forget to fill in the water ballast or gas tank? The Admiral will start reminding you while you launch, once more at the dock, again when you head out and just to make sure once more while underway.

WEATHER INDICATOR:
It is always a good practice to start preparing for heavier weather ahead of time. The Admiral learns quickly and if it experiences a reefed sail once it will start requesting a reef every time the weather picks up. The Admiral will sound the warning way ahead of time and request you to head back.

AUTO PROTECTION FROM THE ENVIRONMENT:
Although waterproof, if rain or cold begins the Admiral quickly retreats to the cabin effectively protecting itself. All Admiral functions are still enabled where data such as heel angle and weather warnings are provided on a regular basis.

RADAR:
The Admiral possesses a visual tracking device keeping a close watch on all surrounding vessels and obstacles (even imaginary) and reminds you on a continuous basis to check out for them.

OTHER (optional):
Sleeping bag heater. Beverage distribution while underway. Some cabin maintenance.

NOTES:
For your sailing pleasure it is important to keep your Admiral unit feeling safe at all times. The direct result is to lower the frequency and tone of the data provided to the operator of the vessel. The Admiral is not compatible with theoretical sailing principals, only hands on experience is an efficient means to achieve a relative comfort level. To do so, you must progressively teach your Admiral a few principals every time you go out. Make sure you operate your boat well within your level otherwise the Admiral quickly senses otherwise which has an adverse effect on the learning process.

PERSONAL NOTES:
This is the 2nd sailing season for the Admiral and myself. My Admiral unit was at version 1 last year and I am happy to say that I successfully upgraded to version 2. Perks of version 2 is that the Admiral starts looking forwards to sailing to the point that she requested training towards the solo operation of the boat this season(V3).

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/09/2008 04:41:10

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 08:29:40

That is what the weenies who are afraid of their wives call them.

Some of us are still men, my wife is my first mate, she either does what I tell her or she stays home.

As for wives who don't like heeling... leave them home or change hobbies. People who sail flat in keel boats are not sailing, they are blowing around while they are floating.
Show your wife any sailing magazine or calandar, if there is a photo of someone sailing well they are heeled over. There have been eras of yacht design where the hull did not even have its designed sailing waterline length unless well heeled. It was suggested that you let your wife drive, I think that is a must. My wife is very good on the helm as a result of that. It will also help your wife and you enjoy sailing more. The number one problem for sailing couples is communication. You at the helm trying to explain to your wife what you want her to do while neither of you are fluent with sailing lingo is an argument waiting to blow. When you hear couples hollering at each other on a sailboat you can bet it is not because either is not trying or willing. It is because they cannot communicate. Have your wife steer, you do all the crew work and explain what you are doing and what you call it. (Another benefit is you will learn by trial and error what things do on a boat. You will learn much faster that way.) After a season or two you will both have the same lingo and she will be able to crew with out stress on either of you. One of the best comments about couples sailing I ever read was an answer to a question in a sailing advise column.
Question:
What do I do? Every time we come into our slip my wife fails to see what needs to happen and do what needs to be done. I am afraid she is going to end up hurt trying to jump off the boat at the last second in an efort to fend the boat off. How do I teach her to be sensitive to what is happeing as we come in?
Answer:
 Stop being a jerk, let your wife have the easy job, let her steer!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3449 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 09:03:14

Hey Steve !

I think you have one two many automated contraptions and need to install some manual overides.

Frank,

My wife is not exactly an Admiral...since you have to gain some sea-legs to be even considered for that job and so I would say she needs more than a few tickets punched before obtaining that rank. But I would say she is much more:

1) A concerned taxpayer and careful how her/joint money is spent.
2) Likes the outdoors and is more use to sailing than some guests we have brought along and therefore has gained more experience and tolerance than a newbie when adverse conditions arise.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 09:58:42

I've been sailing for about 13 years now, but every time my wife sets foot on the boat, it's like her first time. She knows quite a bit about sailing, how everything functions, what is what, etc, etc, but all that goes out the window after about 5 degrees of heel. At that point, my wife experiences uncontrollable panic attacks. Unfortunately for people like my wife, sailing lessons, time, therapy, and the like won't do any good. We've both accepted this long ago and are quite content.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 11:42:13

Many of these comments play directly to my contention that the way to learn sailing is on a Sunfish. First, you really get to understand the relationship of ballast (you), wind, and sails--based on the extreme responsiveness of the boat. Second, although you certainly can capsize a Sunfish, it's not a big problem--in fact, everyone should do it! After learning that way, a C-25 feels like a battleship--impervious to conditions, but still working on the same principles and responsive to the same controls. While my late wife was preferred gardening to sailing, once she figured out that our C-25 virtually couldn't capsize (like our Sunfish or Daysailor could), she actually enjoyed heeling because it meant we were moving nicely.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 12:29:15

Steve, Wise beyond your years.

Guglielmo, please understand that the phrase "Admiral" is used tongue-in-cheek. It's used more like the expression "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

At the risk of being overly serious here, the truth of the matter is that my life with my "Admiral" is a partnership and, if the truth be told, I probably am the senior partner. At least, I sure do get a lot of what I want, when I want. Case in point: I have this masthead sloop that I love -- Kaija! But, I know that if the partnership fails, my life will be less. Frank, I'm not afraid of my wife, but more importantly, she is also not afraid of me. She is my partner, my friend and my Admiral!

Dave is right again. If you have a chance to take a lesson on a Sunfish or Laser or somesuch modified surfboard with a sail, do it. My Admiral and I had our first sailing experience on Lasers. It was a course requirement that the mast had to get wet. We laid the mainsail in the water and had to right them again --alone-- in order to successfully move up to the keel boat phase of the course.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:49:08

When I got this boat I expected that one of two classic things would happen regarding the involvement of the Admiral:
1) Full involvement
2) deminishing involvement to the point where I would be solo sailing.

With a fully Active Admiral, our fleet now consists of three boats and vacations that revolve around boating.
My Admiral fully enjoys the title and I'm glad she does. The term Admiral is in no way derogatory, but in fact is a good descriptor of the reality of our fleet.
I will not move up in rank, I am happy where I am, I remain, the humble Captain.

PS
because our crew consists of two people and one dog, the Admiral is responsible for all foredeck duties, this includes docking,all fender duties, and mooring ball catching.

Edited by - stampeder on 03/09/2008 13:50:59

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 14:52:05

Is it not true in the Navy (John R.) that when an Admiral is aboard a vessel, the Captain is in command of the vessel and its guest?

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