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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

remote outboard steering,,

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 19:21:53

This is really getting confusing for me and I sailed one of these boats a long time. These are the facts from my old 79 SW manual which was converted to a wing. Swing keel UP 2'8": Swing keel DOWN 5': Wing keel 2'10", Rudder below the transom 3'2".
As you can see the rudder is 6" below the SW UP, but nowhere close DOWN and 4" below the wing. That is the reason I new when I was about to go aground. The rudder would drag and shake.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 00:30:57

Well I have remote steering for the NW marinas. After a lot of close calls with dealing with larger boats moving close and in current at the docks and single sailing the boat has remote steering. The tiller is attached to an extension from the outboard with quick release fittings. It can be attached as needed and disengaged very quickly and is set in the locker for storage. I found that the best fittings were air hose fittings which do come in all brass. They are placed on the tiller and engine arm where I can handle the hookup. The system must have complete rotation as each end changes height. I know there should be a picture but not until I can climb a ladder again.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 09:48:07

I had not looked at this thread because remote OB steering has been covered to death, I don't use it and would have nothing to add. After seeing it go to a second page I thought what the heck, this new guy "Quilombo" seems nice and is learning a lot so I wonder what is keeping this thread alive.
To put it in the words of our beloved Frank Barone from Everybody Loves Raymond... "Holy Crap"!!
Quil, this is not a forum of sailing purists,

anything but, if it were we would not be sailing Catalina 25s. We are a cross section of old guys on a budget and a few young people on a budget all of whom have found the Catalina 25 to be the best compromise for our situations. We are also an amazing cross section of localities; Pacific coast, Atlantic coast, Great Lakes, Gulf of Mexico, Florida/Caribbean, and inland lakes and large rivers. If we agree on something then it is because it is universal, no collusion, no agenda. Having read this thread my opinion of you has not changed, you seem very bright, resourceful and ready to jump in to a new adventure; very cool! HOWEVER

, no, a sailboat is not a powerboat under any conditions. Sailboats are fish, designed to be in water, powerboats are ducks, designed to be on water, very different.
You have explained that you are in a very special circumstance due to your shallow water. That means you may have needs unique to your local, however the Catalina 25 swing keel was designed for coping with three foot water. If by some bizarre course of events you have ended up with a non stock rudder then step one is to put the right rudder on your boat. You say you have hinged the rudder, once again "Holy Crap", I don't know what you mean by hinged but the single weakest point on a sailboat is the gudgeon and pintle system that holds rudders on transoms. To reduce what ever robustness exists is completely inappropriate. A kick up rudder is a rudder where the blade rotates up and down on a pivot, usually around the waterline. For these to work there is always a substantial casting to provide strength, Catalina Kick-up rudder heads look like this...

The forces acting on the rudder when under sail can become immense and a rudder that fails is seldom trivial. Please provide some photos of what your rudder looks like so we can help you with your rudder situation.
Never tie off your rudder amidships and try to steer with the outboard. You may provide additional steerage with the outboard thrust but you must use the rudder. A sailboat does not turn like a powerboat, a sailboat pivots at the center of lateral resistance, IE the keel. Sailboats can often turn 360 degrees in very close to their own length. Your bow goes one way as your stern goes the other. If your rudder is made fast on the centerline you will have provided a "water brake" that prevents the stern from coming around as the boat tries to pivot at the keel. If the stern cannot swing its way then the bow cannot swing its way and the boat does not turn anywhere close to the way it was designed to turn. When docking it is best to approach the slip from as far behind the slips as possible, (close to the transoms of the boats that slip behind you). When only a couple slips away you perform a very smooth 90 degree turn and enter the slip straight. (None of that powerboat steering with reverse business!

) Usually the outboard is used to get you within about a dozen slips and then is put in neutral, it just idles and is there for the unexpected and often to be put in reverse after you have begun your straight entry into the slip. I see people use outboards more to help make a sharp turn when leaving a slip than to help turn when entering a slip. And even then the ob is used WITH the rudder not instead. Because the rudder must be used to turn the boat we all are sitting at the motor so if we need the additional thrust of the ob to help in a tight situation we simply reach with the other hand and turn the OB. I don't know what the remote steering system is that seems to be on other boats and googling Teleflex remote steering did not help much, but the companionway is the wrong place to be while entering a slip. Shallow draft boats are designed as a system, the rudder depth and keel depth are a single system designed to work together. Shallow draft boats usually have wider rudders to add surface area to make up for the lack of length. In a very shallow marina, which mine occasionally is, the danger to the rudder is running aground while backing out. Obviously when you are entering a slip, (going forward) your keel will let you know if you have run aground and it should happen before your rudder hits. Backing up is a different situation, it is your rudder that hits first, that is when the gudgeon and pintle take the full force of the grounding and can fail. If you are in a shallow situation you need to take care and back toward deeper water. If that means backing the entire length of the fairway toward open water until you can make a turn and head out forward then do it, even though it looks odd to back up so far. We sailors look odd alot!

One of the best things you and your first mate can do is to take a Red Cross Sailing Course, it will be on little boats and it will help you understand the forces that are in play on a sailboat and because you are a powerboater you will understand the differences when you experience them. Sailing is sailing, what you learn on those little boats will transfer to your new "big boat". A sailboat uses the forces of nature to function, a powerboat overwhelms the forces of nature to function hence the difference in outboard motor sizes.
Sailing is going to surprise you with how much is going on when you are in control of a sailboat and you will love it.
We all hope you will begin posting photos, it will clarify a lot of your questions and we all can enjoy the progress of your projects.
Please keep asking questions and sift through the variations on replies to come up with the advise that helps you and let us know what works for you.

later, Frank Hopper

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 10:15:38

Frank,

A clear, comprehensive, and straightforward explanation of what we have been releasing in bits and pieces.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 12:26:55

Hi Guglielmo... Frank just did a much better job than I did when I suggested you were getting ahead of yourself. As both a sailor and powerboater since long before you were born, I know the differences, and he described some key ones very well. One is being able to turn and glide into a slip as if you were on rails--not possible with most powerboats! It's all different. (I must admit that I don't know precisely how a C-25 SK handles with the keel up, but I know much of the keel is still exposed.)

I was going to leave the rudder modification issue alone, but I also had the reaction Frank expressed... When a sailboat pitches in waves, the lateral forces on the rudder can be huge--broken rudders are one of the more common causes of storm rescues by the USCG. A N. or S. wind on the Hudson, especially opposed to the current, can give you seas that will put yours to the test. Some pix of what you did to yours might help us either get off your case or keep you from "pinwheeling" while you're trying to get the sails down after a big surprise.

And again, please take our reactions, comments, and suggestions in the spirit intended--this is not Sailing Anarchy--we want you to be successful and have a ton of fun! Every one of us learned this stuff from somebody, and many learned a lot of it from the supportive folks right here.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/14/2008 12:31:41

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 18:27:47

I'd like to offer just a tad bit different perspective. I've been sailing for ten years on a C22 and now a C250. My advice is to go S-L-O-W in the marina and dock areas. When you go slow the rudder has less and less impact. Some steering by the outboard is necessary, especially in tight situations. We have to do a tight turn into our slip. Perhaps you do too. Plus, we use a spring line to fully stop and dock and using a spring line is controlled by the OB as well.

I do agree with the advice not to alter your boat until you try the standard ways first. It is your boat, do what you want. I suggest trying the regular way first so you can see its merits and drawbacks for yourself.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/14/2008 18:34:53

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 18:47:00

First of all, I was going to say exactly what Frank said. He must be a faster typist

Actually, I learned pretty much everything I know about sailing right here. One of the things people like to do, especially at this time of the year is dream about boats and what mods should be done first to perfect the boat. Best thing I learned was not to do anything until I'd sailed it for a while. I now have a very simple, basic boat - much different than what I originally imagined.

And now, this fearless Sailor risks all, by re-opening the Tiller VS Wheel debate.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At 1 knot and less you can kiss the rudder control goodbye<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">.... Randy - I wonder if this is the difference between a Tiller and a steering wheel. I can make my boat move just about any direction using my Tiller/rudder alone, without the use of my OB. From a standstill or 1 knot, I can maneuver my boat. One of the first mods I wanted to make was to change from Tiller to wheel. I'm glad I didn't. But don't get me wrong - you make a wheel look good

You and Captain Jack Sparrow that is.

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 19:14:39

Frank, Dave and all,
I appreciate all the responses and again, I have to say, this is amazing, I never thought my questions would fetch so much activity,
as far as the rudder modification, first off, when I say hinge, I should have said pivot,
I will post some pictures when I'm done, so you all can see everything is apart at the moment, I am painting and when I assemble I will take some pictures, I used very good quality Stainless plates and pins, so I dont see any failure anytime soon,
if anything I think I made it stronger not weaker, not sure if I mentioned, I do have some engineering experience, and would never do anything to put myself in a bad way with the rudder,
so again, you guys are invaluable to my sailing and appreciate all the responses,, keep em coming,,,,

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 21:33:22

Mike, it is true that you cannot scull with a wheel like you can with a tiller.

Thank you for the Jack Sparrow compliment.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2008 : 12:40:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I never thought my questions would fetch so much activity<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's called 'Information Dispensation Syndrome'. Particularily manifested in sailors whose Admirals are tired of hearing how much they know about Gudgeons, Pintles, Ablative Paint, tiller VS Wheel theory and of course - Marine head VS Porta Potty Hypothecation.

No problem G, I got info I haven't even dispensed yet

Edited by - on

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