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May Day call

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johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/17/2008 : 13:10:44

https://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/651/194968/

paulj

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2008 : 15:06:40

Strange exchange... What're the coasties doing?

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johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2008 : 20:08:54

http://www.app.com/assets/wav/B3103032314.WAV

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2008 : 21:33:22

I didn't see (hear) that part... "Capt. Joe" gave his lat/lon a couple of times and the CG didn't get it. (I did.) One more reason for a DSC radio connected to a GPS.

Sobering.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2008 : 08:10:27

Ah, the good ole VHF radio discussion... In my not so humble opinion, the Captain clearly panicked and did not maintain proper radio contact with the Coasties. If they request your position more than once - slow down... forget minutes, seconds and degrees. Two niner DOT Five Three DOT Seven Zero TWO BREAK Eight One DOT One Eight DOT Five Five One equals 29 Degrees, 53 minutes, 70 seconds, etc.... Much easier for the coasties to hear and/or review when analysing the tape. 30 miles offshore, words like EPIRB would have notified the Coasties that you had in fact activated your EPIRB and that they could expect a signal.

My guess is that if radio transmissions were tough, that DSC with Lat and Long would not have made it. Remember, DSC transmissions have to send data... A lot tougher way out there than voice transmissions I am sure. Furthermore, if they did not have an EPIRB, how did the Coasties eventually find them? My guess is they triangulated the signal strength from their various towers and figured it out.

I see that Roy Rogers was aboard that vessel. I think Ginger is gonna be pretty upset at those lame radio transmissions. Heck, most folks here could NOW probably do a better job. And while I am thinking about it, a 97 foot vessel just doesn't drop out in 5 minutes unless there has been a problem for sometime that evolved quickly towards the end. 30KM out, you should notify Coasties that you are having problems and are working to resolve AND give them your position. The time to give them your position is NOT when you are leaving the boat.

Sten

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2008 : 13:21:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 My guess is that if radio transmissions were tough, that DSC with Lat and Long would not have made it. Remember, DSC transmissions have to send data... A lot tougher way out there than voice transmissions I am sure.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Once the DSC Distress button is pressed, the radio repeats the digital transmissions (a fraction of a second apiece) on Ch 70 until an acknowledgement is received from another station. I suspect the digital Lat/Lon would have been received more reliably than the two broken, panicky voice attempts that the CG operator didn't catch.

However, the USCG in this area (and NJ) claims that they don't receive DSC, which makes no sense to me. They couldn't buy a $100 off-the-shelf radio without it. At least other vessels can get it, and the coordinates will display on their radios.

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JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2008 : 13:23:25

I listened to the beginning of the .wav MayDay call and heard these coordinates:

93---38---43---48---89. This is confusing, since the area off New Jersey is 39-40 deg N and about 73-74 deg W.

Did the sailor mean to say this:
39---38 N
......and 73---48---89 W ?

Or was there more to the 6 min transmission that I did not hear?

The red marker is about 30 miles off Point Pleasant, NJ.

The last transmission gave 93---9---43---4---8---9, and I bet the guy panicked and could'nt read his position. The coasties tried to get some kind of reasonable coordinates, but I think they couldn't make sense of the location.

Edited by - JohnP on 03/19/2008 13:39:31

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2008 : 16:45:54

Point well taken from Sten... The time to contact the CG is when you first suspect trouble. They're happy to monitor a situation, summon a tow operator, etc., and wrap things up if everything turns out OK. I've gone through it with them once--they requested updates every ten minutes or so on 22A. This guy was having a hard time keying the mike while getting his survival suit on--not to mention reading and reciting coordinates--that or his radio was failing. I think we (and the CG) missed most of the digits.

30 miles out in a storm at night is a lonely place!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2008 : 18:56:49

I know it is Monday morning quarterbacking but wouldn't you want to have an EPIRB if you go 30 miles out? For me that would be absolutely required.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 08:50:59

There was a great commercial in Germany for English language courses. It shows a young German Coast Guard officer being assigned duty at the radio. "mayDay, Mayday, Coast Guard we are sinking" and the Coast Guard officer responds with a heavy German accent, "OK, what are you thinking about?"

Dave, I love advances in technology. I own most of the best yachting technologies available. But I will never trust my life to simply pushing a button. DSC does not replace EPIRB. DSC does not replace good radio practices. It is a tool, but I suspect that it does not send data reliably that far out to sea. Single Side Band radios with modem packets such as the one aboard SV Lysistrata transmit data and voice to the Coasties from that far out. But VHF? Dunno, I'd like to see some data and so far I have been unable to find anything that supports that theory. Also, I'll bet money that the Captain Joe had a modern DSC radio and I'll bet they pushed the button not knowing that it wouldn't be received. I'll also bet that the Coasties have that $100 radio but are not willing to rely on it either. YET! There is a reason that a real mariner learns the alphabet - Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo.....

sten

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Nautiduck
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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 09:33:03

Well, it sounds like none of us really know all of the capabilities and limitations of DSC but the Coast Guard is making it a premier part of their operations. Agreed that we should all know the various voice protocols but, for me, I want the latest technological help on the boat too. Technology isn't everything but clearly it does have value. Within VHF range, where I bet the vast majority of our forum's sailing is done, that is DSC. Be safe out there.

Two weeks to spring launch!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 10:16:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...Dave, I love advances in technology. I own most of the best yachting technologies available. But I will never trust my life to simply pushing a button. DSC does not replace EPIRB. DSC does not replace good radio practices. It is a tool, but I suspect that it does not send data reliably that far out to sea. Single Side Band radios with modem packets such as the one aboard SV Lysistrata transmit data and voice to the Coasties from that far out. But VHF? Dunno, I'd like to see some data and so far I have been unable to find anything that supports that theory. Also, I'll bet money that the Captain Joe had a modern DSC radio and I'll bet they pushed the button not knowing that it wouldn't be received. I'll also bet that the Coasties have that $100 radio but are not willing to rely on it either...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I won't argue those points... DSC is just the first step in distress communication, and as I said, the coast guard does not admit to receiving it here. (I just think that's silly, and even unlikely.) I know CG Sectors Long Island Sound and Sandy Hook were responding to that call, and it sounded like Capt. Joe was hearing them--hard to tell. I know I can clearly receive CG Sandy Hook (NJ), about 120 miles away and across Long Island, from here in Mystic, CT--it's something of an annoyance. (That's on an 8' whip 9' above the water.) I know they have towers scattered around... I also have a pretty good idea my handheld can communicate with Sector Long Island Sound from anywhere on the sound--they have some pretty potent gear. (Their site says "at least 20 miles.") All that said, if I worked 30+ miles out in the Atlantic, I'd carry an EPIRB. SSB is important off-shore, but coastal vessels will be hearing VHF calls--not likely SSB.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/20/2008 10:17:58

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 10:26:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...I also have a pretty good idea my handheld can communicate with Sector Long Island Sound from anywhere on the sound--they have some pretty potent gear.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Repeaters

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 19:35:07

trying to decide between:<ul><li>how the heck does the captain of a 97' ocean fishing boat panick to the point of being incoherent? (the armchair captain)</li><li>if he panicks, I've got a ways to go (the humble karmaist)</li></ul>

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2008 : 20:32:03

It looks like he did a poor job, but he was in a very, very bad place.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2008 : 07:45:17

Anyone pull up the weather he was in? Why did Cap.Joe go down? As a full-time cruiser, we see folks going offshore sans jacklines, EPIRB, liferaft, and SSB.

Also, not to keep beating a dead VHF - but this is why we leave our radio on 16. My wife and I have been about where they were and with our 58 foot mast we might have been able to relay had we been there.

True story - I delivered a Pacific Seacraft 37 from Annapolis to Maine this past summer with the owner onboard and the owners 71 YO father in law. The owner hated to listen to the radio, (it scared his kids) so it was off for most of the trip. We were off Long Island when the weather deteriorated and we ran off, towards Coney Island. After a rough night, we were all a bit tired. After a warm breakfast, the owner took his shift and opted to alter course such that we could run downwind faster. Put a preventer on the main to port and a stormsail to starboard. I kept my mouth shut stupidly. I don't like preventers - I prefer boom brakes controled from the cockpit.

Anyhow, we see this 22 foot single engine powerboat cross our bow in 7 to 10 foot seas and the owner and I remarked that the 22 foot boat really did put the small in small craft advisories. But then a lightbulb went off in my head wherein I remembered a scenario where a stinkpotter warned us of a shoal by crossing our bow years ago. So I ordered the radio on. The Father-in-law was down below and complied.

Minutes later, our depth plunged quickly to 11 and was dropping quickly. The owner ordered the engine on and we turned to port hard. Remember that preventer? The back winded main may have saved us as we heeled to 35 degrees and gunned the engine as hard as possible to get out of there. A few minutes later after safely reaching deeper water, the father in law comes up and says, "Did you hear that?" "hear what?" "The MayDay." Turns out the 22 footer tried to turn around and a wave swamped the engine and they were taking on water. We were the closest vessel for sure and I notified the Coast Guard. The vessel in distress was told that help was 15 minutes away and they responded with, "that isn't fast enough." We punched in his coordinates and I communicated with the captain who was scared.... We turned the strobe on and headed to his coordinates. Over the course of the next 10 minutes he gave 3 different positions - he was moving... And while we could see coasties, seaTow, and NYPD boats all around us, we never saw the vessel in question and they could not see us. Nor could anyone else see the vessel in distress. Finally NYPD put a bird up and spotted them from the air and we called off our assistance.

The owner has now nicknamed the radio "the Sten" and has it on all of the time. And we will probably never know if the stinkpotter saved our vessel at the expense of his own.

sten

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2008 : 08:25:59

You could ask the CG... They have an incident report that probably includes the stinkpotter's statement of why he was there and what happened--it might have even been published in Soundings. (...but I don't remember it--what was the date?)

To continue the "beating," this illustrates, in a life-and-death way, why the USCG regulation says you must monitor Ch. 16 if your VHF is on. (...and it should be on.) On other than small lakes, not doing so is disregarding the lives and safety of other boaters (and maybe even your own). Good work, Sten.

(Oh--and I hate preventers, too. If I were a serious cruiser, I'd have a boom brake. As it was, if I had a long dead-downwind leg, I sometimes just furled the main.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/21/2008 08:41:05

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2008 : 11:20:31

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008803140421

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2008 : 11:33:11

Good for them! Imagine their chances if they didn't have the right stuff--pretty slim. And if those 10' seas (which look like 20) could drown that 97-footer, think about being in a 25-footer out there in dead darkness. (There's always the "little cork" theory, but you wouldn't want to test it!)

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 07:32:11

Quote: "But because the fishing boat had been equipped with technical gear that allowed the rescue crews to narrow their search field, they were able to zero in on the four men, who sent up flares from their life raft when they spotted the helicopters."

When I read that I thought, hmmmm something we don't have on Lysistrata? What could it be? Turns out that they had AIS which is mandatory for a vessel that size and an EPIRB.

I've been within 5 KM of their position in 8-10 foot seas twice now, so I sorta understand. BUT, I was on a 37 foot and 39 foot bluewater boat! Not a mere 97 foot fishing vessel... 10 footers are scary, but nothing to take these guys out. We saw quite a few commercial vessels engaged in fishing that far out on both journeys, all smaller than the Capt. Joe. The waves probably did kill their engines after a big hatch leaked or something, but these guy routinely "play" in these conditions without going down in under 10 minutes. And if conditions started to get bad, why not run with the sea and head for a safe port? Glad they had an EPIRB, and I did not know that AIS could be tracked like that.

Back to DSC - Blue Water Sailing' April edition has a great article on this and provided a link I had not seen referenced here before

http://www.boatus.com/foundation/dsc/player.html

I also did not know that US Commercial Vessels monitor 16 but foreign flagged vessels are not required to do so. SO, DSC was in part created as means of flagging a vessel without hailing. Also, if you know the MMSI number of a buddy, you can hail them directly - which I knew - but I did not know that if properly executed, your buddy will get a beep on the radio indictating he has an incoming call and his radio will automatically switch to the channel that YOU have preselected.

I feel like the Captain in Master & Commander when he stated, "Fascinating modern age we live in!"

sten

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johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 13:17:02

Sten
When monitoring channel 16 it's amazing the things that happen.
Since there are so many radio repeaters I can listen to a large coverage area and some times it gets a little to much to listen to and understand which diverts your attention.
I don't have all the answers but I try to participate as good as I can in the marine environment.
Thanks for posting the How to use your radio...some common sense person said "Fascinating modern age we live in!"

Not everybody can use a radio even Hugh Downs had problems of course he was a aviator pilot.But so is Kevinmac....

paulj

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