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time killer

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kurt
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/20/2002 : 13:18:22

Here is a good time killer.

Using these formulas they say that the C25 will right itself all the way to an angle of 143 degrees. I estimated that the draft of the hull to be about 2’ not using the keel. WOW 143 I start getting nervous at 20 degrees.

The site I used
http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm

Kurt
C25 #5275
SR/FK/inboard
s/v Snowfish

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 13:51:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Here is a good time killer.

Using these formulas they say that the C25 will right itself all the way to an angle of 143 degrees. I estimated that the draft of the hull to be about 2’ not using the keel. WOW 143 I start getting nervous at 20 degrees.

The site I used
http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm

Kurt
C25 #5275
SR/FK/inboard
s/v Snowfish

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Believe me, being in a boat that broached, it takes a hell of a lot to get any keel boat not to pop back up....And they come up quick.

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 15:31:41

much easier than that, put a nail in the bottom of a wine bottle cork. Now try to get the nail to stand up out of the water!

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n/a
deleted

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62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 16:11:25

This is a great example of righting ability and should be posted on one of those messages for "admirals".

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2002 : 16:55:21

Just keep that port locker closed and locked! If it opens in a broach to port, the boat will still right itself, as indicated by the mast as it slips beneath the waves. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 12:50:35

If you lock the cockpit locker, you won't be able to get into it quickly when, in an emergency, you need an extra life jacket, or an extra piece of line, or your boat hook, or your extra can of gasoline. It is a good idea to secure the locker with a quick-release device of some sort.

I don't think you can get enough water into the cockpit of a C-25 to jeopardize the boat unless you are offshore, in a major storm, with big, breaking waves, or, unless you stray into an area where massive waves are breaking over a shoal during a storm. But a C-25 shouldn't be out in those conditions, because it wasn't designed for it.

In the conditions for which a C-25 was designed, you can broach a C-25 far enough to take a little water over the cockpit coaming, but not nearly enough water to jeopardize the boat, and the C-25's ballast won't let it stay on it's side for very long. Even if the port locker comes open, which is very unlikely, little or no water will go into the locker. If we use our boats within their design limitations, they are very safe.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 13:38:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

In the conditions for which a C-25 was designed, you can broach a C-25 far enough to take a little water over the cockpit coaming, but not nearly enough water to jeopardize the boat, and the C-25's ballast won't let it stay on it's side for very long. Even if the port locker comes open, which is very unlikely, little or no water will go into the locker. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree wholeheartedly Steve. Even with an open locker I don't see that much water getting in. ...I should note that I broached in an oday 30 in a long distance race in which we were forced to weather the storm. We had the spreader in the water and the foredeck guy was able to walk back to the cockpit on the side of the hull. The second we cut the fouled line on the spinaker the boat popped up and the sail shook out like a wet dog.

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 16:32:14

The widest part of the boat is amidship, and it is the most buoyant. When the boat is on her side, the middle third of the boat lifts the forward and aft thirds higher, and that helps keep water out of the cockpit.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 16:38:51

that is exactly correct Steve and Duane, use the boat as it was designed and my example of the nail and cork will always hold true. I have found that to be the easiest way to explain ballast on a boat!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 17:49:44

"...I should note that I broached in an oday 30 in a long distance race in which we were forced to weather the storm. We had the spreader in the water and the foredeck guy was able to walk back to the cockpit on the side of the hull. The second we cut the fouled line on the spinaker the boat popped up and the sail shook out like a wet dog." - Duane Wolff

Duane

I thought the storm tactic of choice was to reduce sail, not throw up the spinnaker? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 19:25:25

Normally yes Don. But remember, he was racing - and that's when you let it all hang out!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>(Of course, it often gets you into trouble!)
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2002 : 21:59:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If you lock the cockpit locker, you won't be able to get into it quickly when, in an emergency, you need an extra life jacket...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
OK, I didn't mean "lock"--I meant put close the hasp and perhaps even hook an open lock or something through it. But I keep my life jackets on the seat at the bottom of the companionway steps.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In the conditions for which a C-25 was designed, you can broach a C-25 far enough to take a little water over the cockpit coaming, but not nearly enough water to jeopardize the boat...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I'm probably more chicken than most of you about conditions, but when a squall hits Long Island Sound, I can find myself in 5' square waves in a hurry. If a C-25, with its unusually narrow lines, broaches in those seas, I can expect the possibility of a great deal of water in the cockpit, in an instant. The port locker is open to bilge and the entire interior of the boat. I'll keep it closed, thank you. And I don't even HAVE a spinnaker. <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/22/2002 : 11:43:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Normally yes Don. But remember, he was racing - and that's when you let it all hang out!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>(Of course, it often gets you into trouble!)
Derek

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Your right Derek, and unfortunately since it was a long race, the PHRF A fleet was the last start, about 30 minutes off the Jam boat start, ergo, we were at the back of the pack. Although we knew it was coming via the weather back at the dock, nobody knew it would come that quickly. Once second, 9 knots, the next second, on our ear. Since we were in the back of the pack, there weren't any other boats to watch for an indication either. Its one of the reasons you'll always see a knife hanging around the neck of at least 2 or three crew members....

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 12:51:03

This is a subject that fascinates me. I have read alot about it, and always consider the possibilities of a broach when jibing in stiff wind. While taking in a sunset at the marina, I enjoyed watching a couple going out in a Flying Dutchman (approx 20'LOA) who appeared to be new sailors. A wind of about 10 knots was blowing in the harbor area and the boat was under main only.They did a few practise tacks that looked tentative and a few other manuvers. As they fought their way up wind and were now ready to come down wind, it was kind of like a red flag went up, and I even mentioned it to my wife, "they're going to broach". This was purely instinctive as I've never broached before and have never witnessed a broach. This incident caused me to question my abilities and the abilities of my C-25 SR SK in down wind jibe conditions. As strange as this sounds...has anybody ever practised initiating a broach in their C-25, just to get an idea of what wind speed, sea conditions, heel angel, crew placement (ballast), sail set, etc, contributes or encourages a broach? I stay as far away from broach conditions as possible, but I would like to know when I'm approaching the point of no return.Thanks for your advise. Todd Frye

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 13:23:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
, but I would like to know when I'm approaching the point of no return.Thanks for your advise. Todd Frye<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Usually it comes a few seconds after you make comment like "Oh , I think I am over-sailed"

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d603b3127cce9f858f0ef3ef0000001010" border=0>

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 13:36:11

Todd,

I've broached my C-25 many times, sometimes on purpose, and the boat has to be massively overpowered to do it. You have to keep your sails sheeted in tightly in a really strong puff past the point when all your senses started telling you to ease the sheets. In my experience, the result has never been disastrous, or even nearly so, and I don't recall ever damaging or breaking anything as a result of a broach, although it is certainly possible to do so.

If you have ever broached a Catalina 22, you will know that it broaches suddenly and violently, and it is frightening, but in my experience, nothing bad ever happened. By comparison, the C-25 broaches gradually and fairly predictably, and it is not nearly as scary. The difference is that the C-22 has a flattish bottom and hard chines, and the C-25 has a round bottom and rounded chines.

When jibing the boat in light air, you can just grab the mainsheet and throw the boom over to the opposite side. When jibing in strong wind, I center the mainsheet traveller, pull the mainsheet in all the way, steer the stern across the wind until the wind strikes the opposite side of the mainsail, and then ease out the mainsheet. The boom vang should always be tensioned when jibing the mainsail in strong wind.

Probably the best advice is to avoid broaching, but don't be afraid of it. The person who designed our boats knew that sailboats broach on occasion, and they are designed and built to withstand broaching.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2002 : 20:31:03

Steve: I don't know what waters you sail in, but I don't believe it's as hard to broach as you describe if you're sailing downwind in 5' vertical seas. (When it gets to 4' around here, it's pretty vertical!) But I'm glad to hear the process is gradual rather than sudden--I hate the sound of a mast slapping on the water! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/24/2002 : 00:16:52

Dave: When I wrote the above message, I was thinking in terms of broaching while overpowered and going to windward. I can’t remember ever having broached a ballasted boat while running downwind, because I reduce sail area whenever the wind becomes so strong as to create a risk of broaching downwind. If the boat is severely overpowered when going downwind, it will be much worse when you come about and try to beat to windward. When the wind pipes up, I carry a sail configuration that will allow the boat to sail in any direction efficiently. If you don’t do that, then when you sail downwind to a lee shore and turn around and try to sail to windward, you won’t be able to claw off the lee shore.

Despite what some racers think, sailboats don’t go any faster when they are overpowered. By definition, when a boat is overpowered, it’s sails are generating more power than it needs. That excess power causes a loss of control. A boat that is carrying the correct sail area for the conditions will go faster and be more controllable than one which is overpowered.

The worst broach of a C-25 that I ever saw was a tall rig boat running downwind with a spinnaker. She was approaching the downwind mark, and was hit by one of those gusts that is so intense that it makes the whole rig hum. One moment the mast was upright, and the next moment it was parallel to the water. It was as if a giant had grabbed the mast and wrenched it down. Even then, the mast did not touch the water. It only lasted a few seconds, but it sure was exciting!

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/24/2002 : 12:56:25

There are a couple things I'd like to add, that just came to mind:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would like to know when I'm approaching the point of no return. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You will know that you are "...approaching the point of no return" when you feel as if the boat is not completely responding to the rudder. When the gusts of wind are pushing the boat off its course, and you move the tiller to bring it back to its course, and the boat doesn't respond, or just barely responds to the tiller, then you know that you are overpowered and at risk of broaching. As soon as you realize that is happening, you should immediately start to reduce sail area, especially if you are sailing downwind.

When sailing downwind, you should reduce sail area as soon as you begin to doubt whether you can control the boat in the gusts. When sailing to windward, you can delay the reduction of sail area awhile, because when you are sailing to windward, all you have to do to keep the boat from broaching is to ease the mainsheet. When you are overpowered while sailing downwind, easing the mainsheet doesn't help. Therefore, if you are overpowered when going downwind, you should reduce sail area without hesitation.

Regardless of whether the boat is sailing to windward or downwind, it takes the same amount of force to wrench the boat from an upright position to a mast-down position. Thus, it isn't easier to broach the boat when sailing downwind, but there is less that you can do to prevent it from happening.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/24/2002 : 17:24:55

Steve is correct about the broaching characteristics of the C22 and the C25. In 2 years on the C22 we broached twice (the last time fatally!). In 11 years on the C25 I've never broached. Like Steve I modify my sail plan to fit the conditions (although in all honesty, we do push the envelope when racing)- he is so right when he says that an overpowered sailboat is not faster. I used to race with a sailmaker who loved to see mainsails flogging - he claimed that every flog was a future dollar in his pocket!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Incidentally - our swinger C22 would heel to 20 degrees and then "hit a brick wall". My friend had a wing keel which would go like hell heeled at 30 degrees! "This Side Up" (TRFK) starts to slow at about 22 - 25 degrees.
Derek

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