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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Better fuel mileage?

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/26/2008 : 13:10:52

I am looking at a fuel booster for better mileage for my F250 with the 460 engine. A hydrogen/oxygen generator booster that is installed under the hood close to the intake. Have read everything I can find as my first thought was that this has to be a scam. Found the free down loads that gives the details of construction and sources for materials so very close to making the move. The $4 a gallon and promise of going higher makes me a good target for snake oil. Is anyone using a booster?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2008 : 14:24:36

Back in the 70s a friend used a water injection system that worked very well. He still has the truck so it did not hurt anything.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2008 : 15:21:53

Sure does sound like seductive snake oil. I drive a lot of miles every week and would also be interested in better fuel economy. Any websites I should be looking at?

The one thing I always wonder about with these things is: Am I really saving any money or just changing where I'm sending it? If it costs "X" dollars for the mod, how many gallons of gas do I have to buy before it pays for itself and will my truck last that long?

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2008 : 15:40:08

This is the experiment we did back in our Chemistry class in the 50's making hydrogen gas in the lab with water and DC voltage. I'll put some of the sites on the end so you can see too. I too remember the water injection and I have the directions for it. The booster is suppose to clean up the engine and has no emissions to add and is also for diesel. Boy that does sound .... People I have talked to remind me of the Hindenburg. This is kind of dangerous as when I bring up the idea people look at me different like I just told them man could fly.
http://www.eagle-research.com/products/pfuels.html
http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2008 : 22:22:29

It takes energy to crack water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. That energy has to come from somewehere. In this case, it comes from your engine alternator. Using current from the alternator to crack water puts more load on the engine, which in turn, has to burn more fuel.

Couple this with the primary law of thermodynamics: You can't get more energy out than you put in.

All the above said, adding small amounts of water to the combustion chamber is an old technique that can increase thermodynamic effeciency by a small amount. The boost doesn't have anything to do with 'burning hydrogen'... it comes from the water flashing to steam (expanding) inside the combustion chamber which helps transfer energy to the piston surface.

Here's a pretty factual wikipedia article on it... (cut-n-paste the link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

There were a variety of 'old-time' devices created for this purpose... generally called 'bubbleizers'. They introduced a little water mist into the carb throat. Last one I looked at was essentially a plastic tube leading from the carb venturi to a tin can of water mounted in the engine compartment.

There isn't anything you can do to significantly improve mileage from your 460. Best you can do is to keep it tuned up and keep your foot out of it when possible.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2008 : 01:10:25

I second clambeach, these things all fall into the same category as 100mpg carbs and lifetime high milage sparkplugs that the big oil companies have been suppressing. A pound of any particular fuel has a fixed amount of energy available, diesel has about 20% more than gasoline (more carbon), and the best solution for extracting that energy is a well tuned engine. Most engines reach peak efficiency of energy conversion near their peak torque rpm, so that is where you should cruise for maximum mpg. Unfortunately, that is usually too slow for most of us with gas engines. Diesels produce high torque at low rpm's, but it falls very rapidly as rpm's go up, so they are usually geared to operate closer to their torque peak.

I read the links, and increased combustion efficiency will not increase oxygen levels in your exhaust, it will decrease it. A device that modifies the oxygen sensor output so the computer sees it as reduced will result in the computer sending less fuel so the engine burns lean at the expense of power and valves. In that situation, you will have "knock" and water injection will cool the burning fuel mix to suppress it. In most modern engines a knock sensor will retard timing to suppress knock before water can do any good.

Save your money, these things have been around as long as there have been cars.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2008 : 07:58:27

The basic premise that the auto industry has been colluding to suppress this kind of stuff is patent BS. Do you really think GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or somebody wouldn't do this if it did what is claimed? Today's engines are very complex systems with sensors and computers that respond to conditions inside and outside of the engine. Those of us old enough to have driven carburated cars with manual chokes and such know the difference--when the engine starts on a frosty morning and immediately runs as if it were warmed up, we know something amazing is going on!

But if you're really interested in better mileage, I do have an amazing ion-generator that merely glues onto your air cleaner cover--increases efficiency by "up to 40%"...

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2008 : 09:03:03

If it helps, the Mythbusters did a piece on these things a while back, every single one of them including the hydrogen thing was completely bogus. The rig they used couldn't make enough hydrogen to run the car, but the look on Adam's face when the car started right up (on residual gasoline in the feed line) was priceless. However, they did show that you *could* run a car on pure hydrogen, but the gas is more expensive than gas or diesel, so why would you?

Like Clambeach said, you can't monkey with the laws of thermodynamics, there's only so much energy that can be extracted from a given amount of fuel.

I have an F-250 with the 7.3 liter diesel, and with diesel at $4+/gallon it hurts to drive it back & forth to work (not to mention the 1200+ mile we just drove last weekend to get to my niece's wedding & back). I spent about $2500 in intake, exhaust, and chip upgrades to improve my mileage from around 11-12 MPG to 15-17 (winter & summer respectively). I ran a spreadsheet against the cost at $3/gallon and my amortization was around three years. At $4/gallon it'd be much shorter.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 02:36:13

The only way I have heard of to save $$$ on fuel that is "real", i.e. not a scam, only works on diesels, and it's called an SVO conversion. SVO is "strait vegetable oil", most people who go this route get used deep fryer grease from restaurants, and strain it through 1 micron fabric filter bags. In simple terms, you install an extra tank in your diesel car or truck that has a heat exchanger in it. The heat exchanger taps into the heater hoses, and heats your veg oil to 175ºF so it will have viscosity and flow characteristics similar to petro-diesel. This system actually works, but the problem will be that if too many people start doing it, there won't be enough used oil to go around, so you might spend $2000 on the kit and then not be able to find a consistant, reliable source of "free" used restaurant oil. The Mythbusters show mentioned above actually demonstrated an older Mercedes Benz 300D running SVO, but their test used only 1 gallon of oil and I assume they did it on a warm day where there was little risk of the SVO getting too thick to flow properly. Also, I believe the old Mercedes 300D used for Mythbusters demo probably had a mechanical fuel injection system. Newer diesels with electronic computer-controlled fuel systems might balk at being fed unprocessed vegetable oil. NOTE: SVO is NOT "bio-diesel"! Bio-diesel is vegetable oil that has been processed with sodium hydroxide and methanol to separate out the "heavy" components like glycerin, leaving a light "ester" that has about the same viscosity and combustion properties as petroleum diesel. This processing adds to the cost, with the result that bio-diesel is generally no cheaper than regular diesel.

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:40:41

And following one of those cars is like living next door to Macdonalds!!!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:45:58

The son of a very good friend converted a diesel Mercedes to fryer oil and runs it that way all year, including in Maine. It does smell... uh... "burger with that?"

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/31/2008 08:47:53

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