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John Russell
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Initially Posted - 04/02/2008 : 16:07:16

Got an e-mail from Lats & Atts today. They included this link to their podcast site. It has some pretty cool "How-to" video clips. Pretty basic stuff for most of you but, I learned how to set a whisker pole today

Lots of other topics. They even have one for my favorite spring line singlehanded docking technique.

http://www.seafaring.com/

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/02/2008 : 20:26:18

did they say anything about how they get all those beautiful women on their sailboats?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/02/2008 : 22:56:12

Not too impressed with Capt. Jack's MOB drill... It looked more like fishing for tuna.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/03/2008 : 06:17:10

Capt. Jack Klang appears at many of the annual sailboat shows, sponsored by Quantum Sails. He teaches seamanship techniques all day long, and he's outstanding. Even though I bought his book, I always plan to spend some time listening to him at the Chicago Strictly Sail Show, because he's chock full of interesting ideas.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/03/2008 : 08:48:01

Well I'm unimpressed by his "idea" of relying on his MOB to hang onto a lifesling while being dragged (jerked) 50 yards to a boat that's drifing downwind with no engine or sails. (Idea: Start engine before dropping sails so you know you have a way to maneuver!) Also, he says to keep an eye on the MOB, apparently after realizing he wasn't. ...all of this in very calm, bright conditions. Time to re-shoot that footage.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/03/2008 08:58:48

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 11:42:23

I was also unimpressed by the footage. On the video right after he says he is circling around I expected the boat to be next to the MOB, but no he was still hanging at the end of the sling about 100 feet away! Even myself being new to this would take much less time to retrieve.

To answer Mike on "how they get all those beautiful women on their sailboats?" this being Latts & Atts I'm guessing lots of booze and onshore partying.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 12:29:02

The drill started out downwind... he circled back (without tacking), then jibed, and ended up downwind again, way wide of his MOB. He also didn't throw an untethered Type IV that the MOB could get to--just the Lifesling, which the boat could easily tow away from the MOB if the line doesn't pay out perfectly. He may know lotsa stuff, but he needs to read up on MOB techniques.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 13:35:07

It looked well done to me. He got the Lifesling near the MOB on the first throw, he got the boat stopped and the sails down quickly, and he did it singlehandedly. Once the MOB got to the flotation device, there was no further need to maneuver the boat, so he didn't need the motor. All he had to do is reel him in. I don't know any way that a person singlehanding a boat can maneuver the boat and take down the sails while keeping his eyes glued to the MOB every second of the time. It appeared to me that the MOB was almost always in range of his peripheral vision.

Before the invention of the Lifesling, you had to skillfully maneuver the boat close to the MOB in order to recover him. The whole point of the Lifesling is so that you don't have to expertly maneuver the boat near to the MOB. As the boat swings about, it drags the Lifesling near the MOB, who can swim to it, if he's conscious, and he can then be reeled in. It appeared to me that the Lifesling was used exactly as it had been intended.

If the MOB was disabled, then the Lifesling wouldn't be the best method to recover the MOB, because it requires that the MOB put it over his own head and under his arms. If he can't do that, then you have to use a different method to recover him. In that case, you have to maneuver close to him and someone else has to go in the water to recover him. If you can't get him back on board the boat by yourself, which is a distinct possibility when you're shorthanded, then you need to lash him to the boat and get on the VHF to call for assistance.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 18:33:08

So many ifs... Steve, I've read about and tried various MOB methods, and I've never seen one proposed by an "expert" that looked like that. "If" the MOB is conscious, "if" he has a PFD on, "if" the Lifesling pays out perfectly (rather than being towed away), "if" the person can swim to and then get into the Lifesling, "if" the wind and seas are light enough that the single-handed skipper can go up on the cabintop to drop the main without losing visual contact and then retrieve the MOB while drifting away downwind, "if" he has roller furling, "if" there's no need for the engine, "if" the water is warm enough that three minutes (what he took) isn't dangerous, "if" the MOB can climb the swim ladder... In a more realistic situation, I wouldn't want to be in the water with Captain Jack alone in the boat. That "lesson" needs to be decommissioned.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 19:33:25

I agree, Dave, probably not the best demonstration of MOB. I think he should have worked to be closer to the MOB and have the MOB in the lee of his boat. Notice that he was winded after pulling in a young kid that was probably helping by swimming. Imagine if it was a more generously proportioned MOB (like me) that was not able to help that much. He might have been looking for his electric windlass.
I learned to sail away from the MOB in a figure 8 and return to him. I imagine that might not work as well with my new lifesling, however. I think that approaching the MOB as you head in to the wind makes a lot of sense. It slows the boat making it a bit less frightening to the person in the water.

Did ya notice that his boat, like all good sailboats, has a tiller?

What kind of fine vessel was that anyway? The logo on the mainsail was "c c c"

Edited by - John Russell on 04/04/2008 19:43:28

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/04/2008 : 19:57:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Did ya notice that his boat, like all good sailboats, has a tiller? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's two strikes against Capt. Jack.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 04/05/2008 : 00:00:25

Now who was it that proposed we wouldn't dis each others boats? LOL

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 04/05/2008 00:00:44

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/05/2008 : 07:43:53

You guys obviously don't know how to use the Lifesling. Some of you apparently even own them and haven't figured out how or when to use them. It's natural to criticise a technique that looks different from what you're accustomed to, but the Lifesling represents a major step forward in MOB recovery, and you should learn how to use it. You should ask someone, perhaps from the Coast Guard Auxiliary, to demonstrate it's use for your club this summer.

If you'll look at the pictures on the outside of the bag, you'll see that the idea of the Lifesling is to get the device to the MOB, not to get the boat to the MOB. Once you get the device to him, which has floatation, and which connects him to the boat (the bitter end of the Lifesling's 150' line is tied to a cleat or stanchion on the boat), then the emergency is over, even though he might still be 150' away from the boat, because all you have to do is reel him in. It's much easier to get the device to him, because, even if it doesn't get to him when you initially throw it, it'll get to him as you circle back around him, because as the boat tows the line, it will pull the line right across him. In the video, Capt. Jack threw the device close to the MOB in the first place, but, you don't have to throw it to him accurately in order for it to get to him. When Capt. Jack lowered his sails, the MOB had the device in hand. That's why he lowered his sails. He didn't need to maneuver any more. He just needed to stop the boat and let it drift so he could reel in the MOB.

Most MOB situations, by far, involve a person who is conscious and who can assist in his own recovery. That's the purpose of the Lifesling, and, it's ease of use is why it has become so popular. You don't have to be a skilled boat driver or have the assistance of crew to make it work. Just throw it out there and sail a circle around the MOB, and physics will automatically deliver the device to the MOB. Once he has it, take the sails down, stop the boat and reel him in. Capt. Jack used the device the way it's designed to be used.

If the MOB is unconscious, you'd better hope that he was wearing a PFD that will keep him afloat and hold his head out of the water until you can maneuver the boat back to him. You can't use the Lifesling for every MOB situation, because the MOB has to be able to help himself, and an unconscious MOB can't help himself. In that case, you have to use one of the other MOB methods that brings the boat back close to the MOB, such as the figure 8 or the quick stop, or similar maneuver. But, those methods all require that you skillfully maneuver the boat to within a few feet of the MOB. Sadly, most sailors read about the various MOB techniques, but most never actually practice them, and, when the need arises they get excited and can't maneuver the boat skillfully enough, especially in strong winds and rough waters. The Lifesling only requires that you move the boat, either under sail or with the motor, in a wide circle around the MOB, less than 300' in diameter, until the line gets to him. That's much easier to do. Anyone who can sail a boat can figure out how to sail it around within a 300' diameter circle in all but the harshest of conditions.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/05/2008 : 08:44:44

You're right Steve, I've yet to use my new lifesling in practice or in an actual situation. I'll practice with it as soon as the water is cooperative. As I said in my last, the figure 8 technique that I originally learned will probably not work as well with the lifesling. But, I think it important to be able to maneuver the boat as close to the MOB as is possible. I still think that's true. I also think it's reasonable to be able to do it without the use of the motor.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/05/2008 : 10:33:37

I just realized that, although we have discussed MOB techniques many times, the Lifesling is still fairly new to the market, and this is the first time I can recall that we've discussed its use. It's good that we've started thinking about it.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/06/2008 : 21:20:27

Agreed... although I'm still disappointed that in this demonstration, the "victim" swam to the lifesling that was running away from him (as they will), and the whole concept of circling until it came to him was mentioned but not demonstrated. I also seriously question his dousing all of the sails without starting the engine before doing so. What if he found the victim couldn't do all they are expected to do with the Lifesling, and that with his sales down, his engine wouldn't start. This is serious stuff, and every captain should have a proper procedure practiced and ready to go. Throw a cushion into the water and start the drill (which IMHO begins with throwing another one as close a possible, and then deploying your Lifesling). And what about sailors who don't have a Lifesling? No discussion on that--not even simply to GET ONE.

Disclosure: For years, I carried a floating ski tow rope and a half-dozen Type IV throwables, and had a similar strategy for either doing a "quick stop" maneuver, or bringing the tow rope to the victim, after littering the water with Type IVs. I would have bought the Lifesling II if it had been around before I had decided to sell Passage. It is a good product, but it addresses only one of the possible circumstances--a crew-member who is comfortable and can handle himself in the water as a boat sails away from him.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/06/2008 21:36:04

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 07:37:42

We have a lifesling and we practice using it.

I take a little umbridge with the demo despite Steve's well put case.

In all of Captn Jack's videos, he's never wearing a PFD yet he's up on the cabin top during many of them.
Droping the sails before getting the engine running... and if it won't start (Jones Law) you would have to hoist them again.

Steve, even if the MOB is unconcious, if you have a lifesling, toss it! They make wake up!

All that being said, during the several practices we have taken on Biscayne Bay in moderate air and pretty flat water, it's a great device.

If you are going to practice, start with baby steps: Start with a float in flat water and work up to a volunteer in chop.

Toss a float overboard and call MOB (if you have a gps then hit the mob button *see note below)
Toss the Lifesling overboard and start sailing circles, at the very least it will reduce your departure from the MOB significantly.
As steve said, if the MOB is up to grabbing and attaching to the lifesling, then worst part of the emergancy is over, now it a time issue (cold = less time)
Drop the sails if it's safe to do so and haul in.
If it's not safe to drop the sails, then continue sailing circles and haul in the lifesling as you go. At some point, if you are sailing hard and the line is short, then there's a problem that makes heading into wind the option.

If the MOB is not able to grab the lifesling for whatever reason, then sailing circles will give you the opportunity to get nearer and you have to get within boathooks length while into wind.

During our practices, it was amazing how a novice (the admiral won't mind me calling her one) has a hard time sailing circles. So we practiced more. We have committed to practicing every trip until the process is automatic.

While on deck, I wear my PFD from leaving the dock

The title of the thread is Lats & Atts, so this should probably shift to a new thread.
I found the videos to be very good in demonstrating the concepts, and the free Lats & Atts online magazine is very good too. I'll probably be visting their site a lot more often thanks to this thread.
Now I'm going to practice some foredeck yoga this weekend and zen out a for a bit.

Paul

note: We have the Garmin 192C which IMHOP is one of the best Garmin GPS Chartplotters they have made. The control keys are easy to figure out and are extremely well organized, MOB is a one touch button. I looked at the 500 Series at WestMarine this past week, YUK! Horrific 4 button controls mean you virtually have to drill down a menu for every feature, SUCKS! and NO MOB button! (Virtually all of the similar sized Garmin models have the new 4 button control format. very dissapointing.)

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 07:53:24

The Lifesling is used where the MOB is uninjured and physically able to assist in his own recovery. There's nothing wrong with the MOB swimming to the Lifesling device. Any able-bodied person would be expected to swim for the device. Also, if you tossed a throwable cushion or a life jacket to him, he'd probably have to swim to it, unless your throw was perfect. The main difference between the Lifesling and a throwable pfd is that the Lifesling is tied to the boat, and the throwable pfd is not. If the MOB is wearing a pfd, as in the demonstration, then what have you accomplished by throwing a bunch of cushions to him? Regardless of whether he's wearing a pfd or not, the one device that is the most important to get to him is the one that is attached to the boat with a long line. For that reason, it seems to me that the first priority would be to throw a floatation device to him that is attached to the boat, not a bunch of devices that are unattached. Also, the Lifesling is designed and is strong enough so that it can be used to actually lift the person out of the water and onto the deck of the boat, using a halliard.

You should only take the sails down under one of two conditions: (1) after the MOB has the Lifesling device in his hands, or (2) if you find that, because of the conditions of the sea and wind, you can't effectively bring the boat back under sail, and you need the engine to do so. In that case, check the stern for lines in the water before you crank the engine. If the engine won't start, and you can't sail back to the MOB to recover him, then be sure to say some nice things about him at his memorial service. Once the person is in the water, it's up to the remaining crew to do whatever is necessary under all the circumstances to recover him.

Nevertheless, you're absolutely right that the Lifesling isn't the be all and end-all of MOB techniques. It's one technique that is easy to use, even shorthanded, and it's very forgiving of a skipper's mistakes and lack of skill and even panic under stress. We still need to know and practice the traditional methods, which will be indispensable if the person is disabled, and can't assist in his own recovery.

Paul, with regard to wearing a pfd, I always wear one when I'm singlehanding on open waters, even in fair weather and smooth water, but, if I have crew aboard who is able to handle the boat, then I only wear one when I'm racing, or when a chop starts to develop. I don't consider it a lapse for Capt. Jack to not be wearing one with the MOB and cameraman aboard.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/07/2008 08:06:40

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 08:35:16

Good point on the PFD Steve. The reason I mentioned it was that when Capn Jack is reefing the sail, (during a demo in the conditions you mention) he's up on cabin top, during a time when it's getting blustery and no PFD.

I watch a lot of DIY programs on TV and for liability reasons they always push the "And the most important tool is your safety equipment.. glasses, gloves, dust mask, boots, etc.") When a recent DIY show had none of them it stood out like a sore thumb. (forgive the pun)
Another of the videos had Capn Jack springing the boat while backing out of the dock.. Single handed, stood on the sides holding a rope wrapped around a cleat ashore holding both ends of the line! MOB!!!!!

Just adding to the discussion. As you said, very important that we consider the MOB and Lifesling options.
I still think the videos are well worth watching, the demos are just that and the focus is on the technique, I'm just keeping the none-demo environment in mind. His method of catching a pole is a good one. I wish they had a demo on using the Asymetrical. The whisker pole technique video is really good, now I realize why others on this forum recommend on the mast track for the inboard end of the pole.

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 08:38:37

Steve, I'll add two points to the debate and then declare you the winner--the Lifesling concept is indeed important...

1. A Lifesling or any device attached by line to the boat will have a tendency to drag away from the MOB, even as the boat starts to circle. (Try it.) If the line pays out perfectly, the drag will be less, but you shouldn't pretend that won't happen. This is one reason that I prefer the "quick stop" method if going upwind (which I have used in a real-life skipper-overboard situation on somebody else's boat in a high wind), and a close variant downwind. If the MOB can swim, give him some choices--the Lifesling and the boat. You want him in sight and out of the water ASAP.

2. Given that, and given that people (including you) don't tend to wear PFDs, the skipper's plan should assume the MOB doesn't have one. A throwable cushion (a) should be available for virtually instantaneous use (without even standing up), and (b) once in the water, will remain where it is (perhaps subject to high winds). Above all, you want the person to have some floatation, given that normal clothing does not help. I refer to "littering" because the first throw might not be the best throw.

Sorry about the hijack, but this is one of those discussions that's worth going through every off-season--something for skippers to think about, read about, and put on their lists. A sailboat is a somewhat clumsy rescue vessel, since it doesn't simply stop or turn on a dime like my new MV does.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/07/2008 08:39:41

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 10:40:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 The whisker pole technique video is really good, now I realize why others on this forum recommend on the mast track for the inboard end of the pole.

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah. The whisker pole video, by John Kretschmer, was great! Last year I bought a big, heavy (all-aluminum) 4" diameter telescoping whisker pole for my boat, and couldn't figure out how to use it, especially singlehanding. I'm not as strong as I used to be. With that video, it'll be a snap! I carry mine with one end already snapped onto the mast pad eye and the other end extending slightly through the bow pulpit. All I'll have to do is attach the topping lift and raise it a couple of feet, attach the end fitting to the jibsheet, unfurl the sail and adjust the length of the pole. I knew there had to be an easy, seamanlike way of doing it, but just couldn't figure out how. After I set the pole the first time, I'll use a piece of rigging tape to mark the correct amount of extension for my 140% genoa, so I won't have to guess at it each time.

Using the pole that way, the next thing I'll have to learn how to do is the dip pole gybe, but now it's beginning to sound like it's not too difficult. Probably the only difficult part is coordinating the line handling in a logical sequence, so everything is under control.

That's what I love about this sport. There's a mystery about the easy way to do everything, and when you finally figure out how to do it, it's exciting.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 11:16:28

I liked the whisker pole video too. Wouldn't putting rigging tape on the expandable pole prevent it from collapsing back to its storage size? I would think it would interfer with the twist lock mechanism. Maybe used a permanent marker pen instead. Also, is it necessary to have a topping lift for use of the whisker pole? If so, I guess I can use the jib halyard since we have a furler.

Finally, has anyone on this forum used the Life-Sling kit that has blocks and lines for hoisting the MOB back onboard?? The MOB may well have gotten the Life-Sling but could be too weak to climb aboard. The kit looks well done but has anyone atually used one?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 11:48:41

Couldn't you just drag the person aboard through the C-250 transom opening? (On a C-25, it could be bigger problem.)

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 13:47:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Couldn't you just drag the person aboard through the C-250 transom opening? (On a C-25, it could be bigger problem.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, the transom cutout would certainly help. But in the frigid waters of the PNW a person becomes weak very quicky. I could pull the admiral up, I think, but doubt she could pull me aboard. Hence my question.

What good does it do to pull the MOB alongsde the boat if they are stuck in the frigid water? Has anyone actually used that lifting kit from LifeSling??

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/07/2008 13:48:30

Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 14:29:06

I thought the mainsheet was supposed to provide the purchase.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 14:37:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I liked the whisker pole video too. Wouldn't putting rigging tape on the expandable pole prevent it from collapsing back to its storage size? I would think it would interfer with the twist lock mechanism. Maybe used a permanent marker pen instead. Also, is it necessary to have a topping lift for use of the whisker pole? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Now that you mention it, there isn't much clearance, and a marker would probably be better.

I never needed a topping lift for a whisker pole in the past, but this one is about 13' long when collapsed, 4" in diameter, and extends to about 24', and it's heavy, and hard for one person to handle if you have to carry it on a rolling deck and hook it to a sail. I'd estimate that it's about as heavy as a 20' length of C25 mast. Imagine an old guy trying to hook one end of that sucker to a jibsheet, and push it out and hook the other end to the mast pad eye. The topping lift will carry the weight, and leave my hands free to hook everything up. After watching the video, I think it's going to be as easy as using my old paint roller whisker pole, without a topping lift, or maybe even easier. I don't know that you'd need to use a topping lift on a C25 to carry the weight, but now that I've seen the video, I think it would be better than just hooking up each end and pushing it out, because the topping lift controls the pole, frees up your hands, and there's less chance of something going wrong. I'm really just thinking out loud now, because you can't be sure until you try it and see how it works, but it's worth a few minutes experimentation. Also, I finally lost my old paint roller pole when the clips on both ends of the pole became unhooked at the same time, and it dropped into the water and sank. If a topping lift had been attached to it, it wouldn't have gone into the water.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Finally, has anyone on this forum used the Life-Sling kit that has blocks and lines for hoisting the MOB back onboard?? The MOB may well have gotten the Life-Sling but could be too weak to climb aboard. The kit looks well done but has anyone atually used one?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't have the kit and haven't used it, but have had some instruction with the Lifesling. If the MOB is unconscious or can't climb the swim ladder, it's extremely difficult for even 2-3 strong men to lift a 200# person out of the water and onto the deck of a sailboat, and there are about three recommended ways to deal with it. You can buy the optional hoisting kit, or you can hook the Lifesling to a spare halliard and use a winch to hoist him on deck, or, as a last resort, you can lash him to the side of the boat and get on the radio, explain the situation and ask for someone to come help you bring him aboard. If you hook the Lifesling to a spare halliard, you have to tie a loop in the line about 6-7 feet from the MOB, and shackle the halliard to the loop. Also, you need to rig the Lifesling with a crotch line or strap, so the MOB can't slip out of it while you're hoisting him out. If he's unconscious, someone will almost certainly have to go in to help rig him.

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