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Gin Pole Problem

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 04/11/2008 : 00:06:15

Well, I fabricated a gin pole setup to use for raising the mast when the trailer system is not available - when we get lifted in at a marina.

Today we tried out the new system and it did not work. I need some help figuring out why.

Here is the pole. Is assembles into one piece. The end that connects to the mast is the "male" end fitting of a bimini. It is stainless steel.

Here is the mast attachment. It is fabricated from big "U" bolts and a "female" bimini fitting. The gin pole is pinned to the mast attachment using the bimini fittings.

Here is the mast attachment again (shown after we used the trailer system to raise the mast).

OK, I set up the pole in the regular gin pole way, basically 90 degree off the mast. At the top end of the gin pole I attached the jib halyard to one side and the main sheet to the other. The other end of the main sheet then attached to the anchor locker eye. When I pulled on the main sheet nothing happened, not a budge. After several strong pulls I gave up - the pole bent slightly.

So, what went wrong?

I have three possibilites:

1-My setup has a basic flaw that I just don't see.

2-The mainsheet is not enough leverage, I should use the winch.

3-The mast attachment is too high up the mast and screwed up the leverage.

Or??

UPDATE - Here is a web site with a setup very much like mine. Hmmm, should have worked. Maybe I need a winch to give more oomph...

[url="http://www.dcwi.com/~nybarra/mast.html"]gin pole[/url]

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/11/2008 00:57:50

sweetcraft
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 05:39:03

Randy, do you use a mast crutch at the stern? Raising the mast at least to shoulder height at the stern would get you past the start point which requires the most effort. I use a bridle to steady the gin pole and I steady the mast and pull the line of the mainsheet from my position by the mast. This position also gives me a feel for what the mast is doing if a shroud catches somewhere. A second person can help me by using the winch for power and a controlled pull. I have used this method while on the water after a launch with the mast in it's travel position since day one. I use the system to also lower the mast with the main sheet blocks reversed so the jam cleats can hold the mast in any position while I clear a problem. My mast crutch also has a roller which allows the mast to be moved into position without lifting the total mast. I use my spinnaker pole as the gin pole which is attached at least as high as your pole. The pole takes a compression which does put a lot of bending pressure on it. I have set up an other tall rig using the boom as the gin pole which a drilled hole in the outer end attached to the mast base where a 3/8 bolt is secured with 2 nuts and cut with an inch sticking out as the connector. Hope this helps. May 15 is my knee day so soon I will be able to help.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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166 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 05:54:40

I haven't done a jib pole but after using my aframe, I wonder if you will have enough purchase with the main sheet, especially starting level. It may be worth the $25 to mount a small winch on the pole itself. I know I may consider doing that for adding a topping lift while in the water.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 07:43:22

I use an a-frame to raise and lower the mast and must use it every time I go out and come in. I have not tried the gin pole method. however, looking at those photos it seems to me that the position of the gin pole at the mast would be putting downward pressure and extra weight on the mast itself. It seems like a better position would be at the mast base.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 08:30:48

If you are not using a crutch to get the mast part way up, try this. With someone manning the mainsheet, have another person in the cockpit helping/lifting the mast as the person on the mainsheet takes up the slack. After the mast is about shoulder high, the person manning the mainsheet should now find it much easier to stand the mast up the rest of the way.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:00:31

can't see the pictures (work firewall) but<ul><li>make sure the mast step pin is not tight (sorry about stating the obvious)</li><li>not raising the mast to shoulder high may make it higher and the compression force may be enough to buckle the pole (we use the boom), too lazy to calculate the compression force but I am guessing it's substantial</li><li>I'd heed the bridle advice (basically lines from far end of the gin pole to the fwd or mid chainplates; the mast will try to escape sideways)</li></ul>
We'll be raising the mast with the (boom) gin pole this Sunday, I'll take pictures.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:00:48

Randy,
are you using any kind of babystay on the gin pole (effectively turning it into a modified A frame.)?

I agree with Don and the others, the mast head has to be raised a bit otherwise the force to get it going is gonna be huge.
When we lift the mast on the trailer, the mast head crutch support is raised as high as possible and even then it takes the winch to get it going.

Randy, once the load is on the foot of the gin pole, it's not going anywhere, so I would think that your (SS) U bolt setup is probably overkill.
I would think all you need is something to prevent the pole foot from sliding up and down the mast (when vertical) which would negate the need for all that hardware on the mast - snagger heaven/hell.

I have been sketching out my own version of the gin pole setup, but using our whisker pole (modified so that there is a pin though the two tubes to prevent the load being put on the twist lock) I was looking at putting a track on the front of the mast with a movable pad eye on the track.

After watching the video on 'using a whisker pole' on Lats & Atts, I decided that my track would be much longer so that the inboard end of the pole would go up rather then the outboard end of the pole going up the mast.

Now tell me your gin pole is SS

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:09:36

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, we have a mast crutch at the stern and the mast is head high at the crutch. I am thinking the mainsheet just didn't give us the power we needed and that a winch installed on the gin pole would help, or run the line back to a halyard winch. I am also thinking that lowering the gin pole mast attachment would help with the pivoting. Seems to me those A-frames place no downward pressure on the mast while my ginpole setup does. Sort of works against itself at least initially.

More thoughts?

By the way when we reverted to the trailer system we had a back stay hangup and needed to lower a bit when the mast was near vertical. The Admiral was at the trailer winch and when she flipped the winch lever to reverse direction the handle spun back, under pressure, and nailed the back of her hand really hard. Black and blue and swollen now. She was a trooper but was shaken by it. I could kick myself for not being more attentive to the back stay attachment points. I had the shroud toggles under watchful eye but not the back stay. Damn!

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:19:19

I'm just curious why you can't use the trailer system before you're hoisted into the water?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:19:56

Paul, the mast attachment looks beefy but its purpose is only to provide an attachment point for the gin pole. My design goal was to not modify the mast in any way and this rig just bolts on in a minute or two. I remove it once the mast is up. Other suggestions are appreciated - with photos please! I know the original 250's had a hole in the mast but no way am I drilling a hole in my mast!

The gin pole is 1 1/2" aluminum with 1/4" walls. Way over-engineered, I know.

I am 5' 9" and weigh 150 at 57 years old. Maybe I just don't have the muscle to do this without a winch helping.

It does make me appreciate the trailer system which is a dream but at our marina in the San Juans the boat gets lifted in with the mast down. It is the kind of hoist that will not accommodate a raised mast.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/11/2008 09:21:06

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:41:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 It does make me appreciate the trailer system which is a dream but at our marina in the San Juans the boat gets lifted in with the mast down. It is the kind of hoist that will not accommodate a raised mast.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does the marina have a gin pole?

My marina has a gin pole that is used to step/unstep the mast when the boat is in the water.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 09:48:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Does the marina have a gin pole? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Incredibly, no.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 10:14:35

Randy, I lower my mast forward, using the boom as a gin pole. I've found that much easier than lowering it aft. My point is that if your gin pole isn't as long and strong as the boom, you might not have enough leverage and/or strength.

Just guessing . . .

Brooke

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/11/2008 10:22:30

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:05:39

Randy, your attachment point on the mast looks too low.

My only comparison is the way I use my A-Frame.
For the purpose of maximizing leverage, imagine in your mind's eye, the travel of the end of your gin pole.(the end that's attached to the halyard) The answer in my mind's eye is an ARC, which will describe about one quarter of a circle in its travel to the desired position. The end of the gin pole's travel being perpendicular to the deck.
I'm not sure from your description, how your halyard and how your mainsheet are attached, so I'll tell you how I'd attach them.
The jib halyard leads from the top of the mast and terminates at the end of the gin pole.(the other end of the jib halyard should be tied off at the base of the mast) The main sheet attaches to the top of the gin pole and goes forward to the anchor locker eye. The anchor locker eye then becomes the point at which the energy of your efforts are directed.

When we use our A-Frame. I do some of the lifting while the Admiral uses the winch. If it's not easy to do, then there is a jam somewhere.
I hope this helps.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:23:00

Stampeder, thanks. I attach the job halyard and main sheet just as you describe and terminate at the anchor locker eye. I think we need more mechanical advantage via a winch. I am now considering two options:

Add a trailer winch to the gin pole (like Arlyn Stewart does).

Or, use a long line instead of the main sheet. Have the line run from the top of the gin pole through a block that is anchored to the anchor locker eye and then runs back to a cabin top winch.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/11/2008 11:24:40

sweetcraft
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:26:50

You now have lots of ideas and they work. I have a main sheet with blocks that give a 4 to 1 purchase and I pull up my tall rig mast with one hand and the other hand holding the mast steady. My older friends use the winch with a longer sheet for a very easy lift, I've got you by 13 years. I have designed my system for hoist launching with the mast down which is a bit cheaper than the travel lift for the NW cruise. I do have everything aboard so the operation of raising and lowering the mast can be done anywhere except in rough water. Sorry that the trailer winch bit, I am working on a radio controlled winch for pulling the boat back on the trailer, maybe hummmm. Will take pictures of this idea for some feed back. We definitely don't want to discourage our crew.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:34:33

Randy,
Are you referring to the lift in Anacortes?

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:49:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think we need more mechanical advantage via a winch<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Raising a mast with a Gin pole should be an easy thing to do, and should not require much effort. I would be looking for where the hangup is. Anytime we've raised our mast we almost always initially forget one thing then have to correct it and then get back to raising the mast. If your gin pole is bending, then it's probably recieving enough mechanical effort to move it- but also might indicate that the angle of attack is not correct. Methinks there is a hangup somewhere. Your hinge point is the base of your mast, and I know from experience that the bolt in the mast base can sometimes bind. When I raise my mast, I sometimes use a screwdriver as a hinge and then replace it with the proper bolt when the mast is up.
I also think an A-Frame is a much better way to raise a mast, especially when it's you and the Admiral doing the work - because I think the A-Frame is better suited for stopping mid-hoist.
Also, FWIW - we don't use the mainsheet for rasing the mast, we use a 100' line that runs from the top of the A-Frame to a block at the bow that then runs via cabin top clutch to the cockpit winch. The Admiral mans the winch while I guide the mast with my shoulder. The beauty of this is the clutch allows us to stop mid-hoist.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 11:59:45

Having a block and tackle setup between the anchor locker eye and the gin pole will have an advantage(forgive the pun) of slowing the mast decent during a mishap.

This is turning into another valuable thread. Randy thanks for posting and getting the subject rolling.

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 12:11:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a main sheet with blocks that give a 4 to 1 purchase and I pull up my tall rig mast with one hand and the other hand holding the mast steady. My older friends use the winch with a longer sheet for a very easy lift,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim, you're killin' me!

David, yes the lift at Cap Sante.

Paul, I am leaning to the block at the anchor eye and line back to the cabin top winch idea.

Stampeder, I don't think I was caught up on anything because the trailer setup (which was engaged throughout the process as a backup since the gin pole was a new system) worked right straight off. I like your screwdriver idea.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 12:21:23

Not sure I understand the 'screwdriver' idea.

I put a 6" fender just aft of the mast step before moving the mast off the trailer post and aft on the stern mast crutch roller.
The fender acts like a shock absorber allowing easy insert of the mast bolt.

Paul

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 12:54:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">put a 6" fender just aft of the mast step<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is an excellent tip. A good, well inflated,round fender will help you roll the mast to the exact spot, and helps position the base at the right place to insert the bolt.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 12:59:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Stampeder, I don't think I was caught up on anything because the trailer setup (which was engaged throughout the process as a backup since the gin pole was a new system) worked right straight off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Then I'm inclined to think my first inclination was correct - and that the gin pole needs to be further up the mast.

I look forward to hearing what the final answer is.

The other problem could be that you have a wheel instead of a tiller.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 13:40:19

I disagree, I think the pole needs to be closer to the foot of the mast. The higher up the mast the pole is, the more effort goes into compressing the pole (and crushing your mast) instead of creating torsion at the fulcrum (base of the mast). You want your effort to produce torque, not compression. Obviously you're going to get both especially when you start, compression is at it's highest when the gin pole is nearly vertical. As the load changes from compression to torsion, the mast goes up easier & easier. Take a look at this guy's rig for a C-22: http://www.slowflight.net/upgrades/tips-GinPole.html

Combine a lower point of effort with raising the mast up on your shoulder while standing on your seats, and the mast should go right up.

I wasn't aware that you had to raise your mast after they set your boat in the water at Cap Sante. I may have to make one of these as well.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 14:17:45

Randy,

I sweated over the issue of dropping my mast singlehanded. Then I figured out that the force needed to start raising the mast if you use a pole (or A-frame) that's half the height of the mast is about twice the weight of the mast.

So I made sure to add my (3:1) boom vang so that I had to pull with only one third of the force needed without it.

If you have to start raising a 70 lb mast with 140 lb of force, that is hard to do without a winch and a clutch. But 46 lb (140 lb / 3) is much more reasonable.

I started raising my mast from the crutch using only the boom vang on the 12 ft. A-frame. After that was pulled tight, the mainsheet got easier and easier to pull through the turning block at the bow and I could stop any time since it was held in my cabin-top clutch.

Your setup should work, with either a helper to push up at the start, or with an extra block and tackle in the system to start easier.

Here's the picture I showed in that old thread on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16867"]repairing/replacing my anchor light[/url]:

The boom vang is near the top of the A-frame, and it really was fully extended before raising the mast.

As others have said, unless something was sticking, your gin pole should have given you reasonable leverage to raise/drop the mast. But it's nice to make use of the fancy rigging we have on our boats for mechanical advantage, too.

Happy sailing!

Edited by - JohnP on 04/11/2008 14:21:53

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 14:52:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I think we need more mechanical advantage via a winch.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your gin pole bent with your 4:1 mainsheet, I'd be leery about adding more horsepower via a winch.

Edited by - on

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