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Honda vs. Yamaha outboards?

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MartinJW
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USA
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Initially Posted - 04/19/2008 : 04:25:36

We had a 2007 Honda 5hp (4-cycle) on our C-18, and it was wonderful: quiet, reliable, easy to use, and economical. So...

We were all set to install a new Honda 9.9hp 25" shaft (w/ elec start and power tilt) on our new C-250, but a Honda+Yamaha dealer told me that the Yamahas outsell Hondas by something like 10:1 in his shop. He also told me that Yamahas are outselling Hondas in general.

He implied that the lower-end transmission is more rugged on the Yamaha, and that the Yamaha developed more thrust per HP. Also, the Yamaha was a little lighter than the Honda. He may have suggested that the FNR control was a little easier to use on the Yamaha, but my memory is a little fuzzy.

He was offering the Yamaha at about $2,800 and the Honda at about $3,000 even, as I recall.

Have you lately had any good/bad/indifferent experiences with Honda and/or Yamaha outboard engines?


Opinions, stories, suggestions, recommendations?

Thanks!

(By the way, there is a related thread about a problem with a Honda OB in the C-250 specific forum, too.)

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - MartinJW on 04/19/2008 04:27:32

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 08:46:16

A buddy has a high-thrust Yamaha 8 on his Mac. No worries, great engine. The high-thrust model was designed for low speed (non-planing hull) applications like sailboats and 'work boats'.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 10:41:36

Tohatsu 9.8 XXL shaft electric start for $1850 sounds like the better deal. I love mine and sail 200 days per year, never a problem for 2 years now.

You can buy the Tohatsu AND a new main or new jib for the price.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 11:23:12

From my investigations a few years ago, they're both fine engines...

- The tiller-handle shifter on the Yamaha is nice, although the front-mounted shifter on the Honda is a close second in that class.

- Both engines are "high thrust", and both have more power than you can use on a C-250.

- The Honda has a higher-output alternator--12 amps peak, with something like 8 amps at idle if I recall correctly.

- On the Honda, the 9.9 is a waste of boat units--the 8 is the same engine, and both are more than you need.

- Both Y & H are heavy--the Nissan/Tohatsu is maybe 15 lbs. lighter than either, and the price is certainly another attraction.

Yamaha does outsell Honda, primarily due to marketing. They've concentrated on packaging with boat manufacturers more effectively, and have built a more extensive dealer network. Honda is a little tougher to do business with in some ways--they require a lot in the way of installation testing by the dealer--perhaps one reason your dealer would rather sell you something else. But dealers have told me Honda is second to none in honoring warranty claims.

The USCG runs big Hondas, and runs them HARD... Grady White sells big Yamahas, and wouldn't settle for second-best. Satisfaction surveys alternate between the two year-to-year... Take your pick.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/19/2008 11:24:03

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 12:32:57

Commercial fishermen on Canada's west coast almost exclusively use Honda OB's.
The Cdn Navy generally uses Hondas on their rigid hulled inflatables - albeit these are the 100+HP OBs.
I have a 9.9 Honda OB that is now ten years old, it has never let me down.

I deal with 2 boat sellers (the marina where my boat is moored and the Zodiac dealer where I bought two inflatable boats), who have similar opinions about OBs. They say that Yamaha and Honda are both good and it doesn't make any difference which one you buy. Their advice, shop for the best price.
I have not looked at Tohatsu as they do not have a good dealer network in Canada. I've had a Merc OB before and would never buy another one.

I've been shopping for an OB for my Zodiac. So, armed with the above info, I will be applying the same criteria for OBs that I have with other purchases: buy locally, deal with the vendor most qualified to deal with warranty or maintenence issues, buy stuff that is made or at least assembled in North America.(no chinese stuff), environmental issues (does the new purchase meet or exceed EPA standards)

Edited by - on

willy
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Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 15:04:01

Love my Tohatsu....great savings, light weight, plenty of thrust, electric start...all for hundreds less than Honda & Yamaha!

Edited by - on

Chris Z
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Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 22:13:40

I have the Yamaha and it is the best motor in my opinion. I have a Mercury (Tohatsu) on my fishing boat and my dad has a Honda on his boat. The Yamaha is much quiter then either. Also, I never had to turn it over more then once to start.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/19/2008 : 22:39:55

The marina I bought my Honda also sold many of the other outboards - Yamaha, Tohatsu, Johnson and I think Mercury. I was leaning toward the Honda anyway but I asked them about the various outboards. The mechanic and the owner both had similar opinions. They told me I could take my pick between Yamaha and Honda - both fine outboards. They indicated that in some horsepowers, one is more than the other and sometimes that makes a difference in the decision point amongst customers. For whatever reason, they did not outright tell me why not to get a Tohatsu just indicated go with a Yamaha or Honda. Yet they did sell Tohatsus. Maybe 2 years ago, they did not have as much experience with them and the track record with Y & H had already been established over many years ? In regards to the Johnsons they told me that years ago the Evinrudes and Johnsons were very good outboards but then they were sold and the new management their opinion was that it was not as good as they have seen a number of recalls and issues with the Johnsons and Evinrudes.

At the time I was buying my Hondsa it was ~ March of 2006. Thought it would be a decent time to buy. Most boat owbers were still in hibernation. Turns out the marina had something like a $1 million contract to fulfill with Homeland Security for Zodiac Inflatables and a bunch of Hondas. Isaw them zipping around the marina area testing them before they then had to deflate them, package them and ship them out. They got to prepping my outboard about a week or two later..believe I still got it in March.

Then a few months later when cruising our Potomac River waters (it was a very light wind day), the Coast Guard boarded me, everything checked out and then I spent a few minutes talking with them. Among other things, I asked them how they liked their dual Honda Outboards. They had very good things to say about them and they are out and about using them just about everyday zipping along. Figure if it is good enough for the Coast Guard, should be good for me. Love the automatic idle adjuster - No choke button to push in. It automatically slows up after about 30 secs to a minute when warmed up. Has worked flawlessly.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/19/2008 22:40:40

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 06:23:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 For whatever reason, they did not outright tell me why not to get a Tohatsu just indicated go with a Yamaha or Honda. Yet they did sell Tohatsus.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As with most things, I'd imagine profit margins are higher on the more expensive engines which would explain why they didn't push the Tohatsu.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 08:53:02

Don,

You may be right about profit margins but then why are profit margins so high on the more expensive engines...maybe reputation has something to do with that ?

The fact that this particular marina, Washington Marina (oldest in DC area and believe was commissioned by one of our past US Presidents) was fulfilling a Homeland Security contract for $1M worth of motors and inflatables, it would seem that they would have little at stake offering me biased opinions for a 1 unit buy.

You may still be right but I tend to believe that they may not have been selling Tohatsu for all that long compared to their other outboard offerings and that is why they had skimpy comments regarding the Tohatso - They were neither negative or positive...more of a wait and see outlook.

A bigger question to consider is why would Homeland Security and the USCG (at least locally) all have Honda motors on their boats ? More than one in this posting thread has indicated something similar. Why are they not all running around with a Tohatsu ? While Tohatsu is not a new outboard mfr and has a long history dating back to 1922 (I checked), it may just be that their marketing in the USA has not been as great in years past. Maybe they are now going full blast - Lot's of people seem to be buying them and have had good things to say about them !!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 11:01:48

This is a Ford vs Chevy vs Chrysler argument. Any of these motors will work just fine on a 25' sailboat.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 11:32:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 This is a Ford vs Chevy vs Chrysler argument. Any of these motors will work just fine on a 25' sailboat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Rolex/Timex or, maybe just Seiko/Timex

Edited by - John Russell on 04/20/2008 11:32:50

stampeder
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 12:48:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This is a Ford vs Chevy vs Chrysler argument. Any of these motors will work just fine on a 25' sailboat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To a certain degree it is. These are mechanical devices, they are going to break-down and they are going to need parts and maintenance etc. I'd rather pay a little more to a local guy that stocks parts and who has my on-going business in mind when I bring a boat problem to him.
You can buy a less expensive OB over the internet but if you need to get it fixed, the internet doesn't care. If you buy a less expensive Tohatsu from a dealer and it works for ten years without a problem its a good deal but if you buy one that needs a mechanic's touch, you might be in trouble with a dealer who doesn't like them but sells them because of the price point.
This is more of a Chevy vs Ford vs Hyundai question.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 12:49:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 A bigger question to consider is why would Homeland Security and the USCG (at least locally) all have Honda motors on their boats? More than one in this posting thread has indicated something similar. Why are they not all running around with a Tohatsu?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you've ever gotten involved with government/military procurement, you'd have a pretty good idea... Honda is by far the oldest 4-stroke outboard mfgr., with Yamaha in second place (although now the top seller). Another thing is that Tohatsu has not yet come out with anything bigger than 115 hp. If you look at the transoms of most USCG and DHS RIBs, they're running twin 225 Hondas. They buy some smaller engines, but through the dealer network that sells and services their workhorses.

Edited by - on

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 13:40:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 
...they are going to need parts and maintenance etc. I'd rather pay a little more to a local guy that stocks parts and who has my on-going business in mind when I bring a boat problem to him.
 
You can buy a less expensive OB over the internet but if you need to get it fixed, the internet doesn't care. If you buy a less expensive Tohatsu from a dealer and it works for ten years without a problem its a good deal but if you buy one that needs a mechanic's touch, you might be in trouble with a dealer who doesn't like them but sells them because of the price point.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wholeheartedly agree. One of my considerations is that there is a fantastic Honda Marine dealer about 20 miles from my home. These guys have been great about answering questions, service, parts, and so on. I'll spend a bit more to keep this resource in business.

Edited by - MartinJW on 04/20/2008 13:43:00

willy
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 13:56:03

I love Hondas except they have gotton so damn heavy.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 14:02:35

Tohatsu = Nissan = Mercury

They are quality motors.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 15:30:21

I forgot how sensitive everyone gets on subjects like this. Okay, the original question was regarding a $200 difference between Honda and Yamaha.

Martin,

I don't know why your dealer sells so many more Yamahas than Hondas. I do not believe there is a 10:1 difference in their performance/reliability. If you put the $200 difference aside for now, I would compare what the features of each are just looking at the specs/pamplets of each. Maybe that will drum up some addl considerations to ask about. You already mentioned the merits of the Honda Dealer 20 miles away, so that is one consideration but all the people having Yamahas must be getting quality service nearby as well ? What about the outboards in your marina, the majority there also have Yamahas ?
I think you will be happy with either one....and just not to leave all those out that do not have a Honda or Yamaha.....you would probably be happy with one of their outboards as well.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/20/2008 15:31:15

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 16:46:15

I just thought of another factor that was important to me... In 2002, Yamaha's high-thrust 8 was electric start only--no pull starter whatsoever--not even an emergency starter inside the cowl. To get to the flywheel, you'd have to unbolt its cover. The electric start Honda had a standard external recoil starter, so when you inadvertently run down the battery, you don't have to call TowboatUS for a jump start. I can't tell from their site whether Yamaha corrected that omission on the H/T models.

Edited by - on

tchowes
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 20:58:39

I'm about to buy an outboard for my C25 this week. I'm going to probably buy the Tohatsu unless a Yamaha suddenly rears its head at an attractive price. If the price differential was within $400, I'd be swayed by the Yamaha. Given the fact that we're talking low horsepower engines, I'm sure the Tohatsu is fine. They've been around a long time. My buddy, who has lived on his 35' Pearson-Alberg sailboat for 15 years sums it up this way. When he goes down the Caribbean, Yamaha parts are easier to come by, but you need a mechanic due to greater complexity. The Tohatsus are simplier engines. Don't need much for tools. Easier to work on yourself. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if the Honda or Yamaha were smoother and more sophisticated.....

By the way, the price of the 9.8hp 25" shaft Tohatsu is up to $1,979, up $100 from a couple of months ago. With the bank draft and Catalina association discounts, I'm sure one can save $50 or so. By the way, what is the discount for being an association member? Just curious.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 04/20/2008 : 22:16:36

I've said this before on this topic, but I agree with Stampeder and perhaps others about the importance of a relationship with a local dealer. I bought a Honda last year because the dealer has an unblemished reputation for service. One bad repair can blow the savings you thought you made buying a cheaper motor.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 00:14:54

All true about service, but I generally do my own. The real issue, besides perception/impression/name recognition, is creature comfort. Tohatsu builds the same engine for Mercury, Nissan, and their own name, the difference is control placement, sound deadening and other small details. No manufacturer makes the quietest engines across the horsepower range. PS testing is quite specific about objective and subjective noise evaluation and nearly every manufacturer wins at some specific horsepower. They are all reliable. If you are soured on a brand from a bad experience, ten thousand others aren't, and somebody is soured on your favored brand. Buy what catches your eye and bank account and you'll be happy. My 15 year old Johnson starts and runs great, but it is no better than any other reasonably maintained engine.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 05:32:27

You are right about the sound issue being an important one. I guess what I am not sure about is what may be a sound issue may not be one for another boat even if same model boat. One consideration is that a vibration/harmonic may set up at a certain rpm but on another boat, it may not have that same noise issue or may be at a different rpm. Depending at what rpm the noise/vibration sets in, it could be annoying or not an issue at all.

Having said that, I have noticed that my Honda does have a vibration that sets up at a mid-rpm, above the very slow/slow speed but below anywhere close to a middle range speed...if you get my drift (no pun intended). The noise/vibration is partially from the handle (unless held or wedged against the stern rail) and it is also partially from the channel lock that captures the outboard handle mounts to the motor bracket. There is also a bit of addl noise/vibration from something else at that same rpm which is from the outboard itself. I did notice a year or so ago, that the noise/vibration from the outboard itself was more noticeable. But when I did maintenance last year, changing the spark plugs, I noticed that one of the spark plugs was not completely snug and so that addl noise went away when I tightened down the new spark plugs.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/21/2008 05:35:19

willy
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Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 09:48:30

My 03 Honda 8 had a tiller rattle that I could never get rid of...
Great running motor though,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 11:44:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willy
 My 03 Honda 8 had a tiller rattle that I could never get rid of...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Mine too--a harmonic in a narrow band around 1500 rpm. Idle it down or crank it up just a bit and it purred. On any of these 4-strokes, check that you've turned it off before you leave the boat!

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 12:11:34

My '82 C25 had the original '82 Honda 7.5, after 25 years she fired up first pull and never failed me once. bad weather, stink pot swampings, lobster pot pick ups, you name it. Perfect engine. Few sailors can make that claim unless it is one of those old Sears air-cooled jobbers which I hear people swear by.

As a former motorcyclist - I'd rather have a Honda than a Yamaha most days. The Accord and other models consistently have excellent reliability ratings. And as a former Harley owner 4 times stupid, I always will stand by the statement, "If they made airplanes - would you fly in one?" Same thing for motors, buy the best and you'll only cry once. $200 difference seems like an easy decision to me. When your motor fails during that critical moment with a seawall on both sides and nowhere to go, you'll be glad you have the best. Of course, if this happens to you and you do have the best, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, 'cuz you coulda had 1.5 tohatsu's on board.

sten

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