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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Honda vs. Yamaha outboards?

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 14:25:22

If I'm looking at a 40-50% price difference ($2,800 to $3,000 compared to $2000) for essentially the same output in different outboard motors, it would be a no-brainer for me. There would have to be several uniquely special benefits to the higher-priced models to convince me to go that route.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 15:04:04

At my marina, I've seen nothing but grief from Honda outboards. I wouldn't buy one.

I've owned three Honda motorcycles and a Honda Accord, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of those--but not the outboard.

BTW, my '83 Nissan (now called Tohatsu) is running great. It started on one pull after being stored for the winter.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 17:53:40

Honda makes more engines than anybody else in the world. They are a bit more money, but, IMHO, worth it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 18:59:19

On my first boat, a Venture 25, I inherited a 17 year old Johnson and that outboard purred like a kitten, never giving me a lick or trouble, even though it still had the original plugs in it. I miss that outboard more than the boat.

My current outboard, a 95 Mercury, is an absolute peach. A leisurely pull using only about 12 inches of cord and the thing just springs to life. It'll probably outlast me.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 19:14:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Baker
 At my marina, I've seen nothing but grief from Honda outboards. I wouldn't buy one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've been around this forum since around the beginning, about 6 or 7 years, and it is littered with topics about people having problems with their Honda's. I wouldn't buy one either.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 19:33:50

So, the consensus is that the best outboard motor is:

Nissan, Honda, Yamaha, Tohatsu, Mercury, Johnson

Glad we cleared that up!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 00:37:24

That's the thing Sten, there just isn't a significant difference in reliability among the engines.

Tohatsus are not simpler, Hondas and Yamahas are not more complex - they are overhead cam 4 stroke two bangers with electronic ignition and modest compression that only rev to 5 -6000 rpms. And regarding thrust: horse power and prop determine thrust, not some esoteric magic. Changing the prop pitch, diameter, and prop rpm's can let 9.9 hp move a lot of water slowly for a displacement hull or less water faster for a planing hull. HP is a measure of work: mass of water X velocity = mass X (distance/time) = HP (you just throw in a constant).

If you like Mercury's throttle shift, Honda's shift lever placement, or somebody's electronic choke/fast idle, or noise level, then buy it. If you find a motor awkward to use, noisy,or having poor dealer support you will not be happy. I've rebuilt to many engines from lawnmowers to sportscars to be impressed by brand names.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/22/2008 01:02:33

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 05:30:23

In regards to issues with outboards and the perception of their performence based on these issues may have something to do also with just what is the population out there for each manufacturer. If you have 1000 individuals and they report 30 issues with a certain outboard versus say 100 individuals that report 10 issues with another brand outboard, those reading the comments probably would perceive a totally different perception regarding which outboards have more issues. On the other hand, if you are the one that has the issues, my thought is best to give another mfr a shot second time around.

Anyone know just how many units are out there/production-wise of outboards for say the last 10 years for each of the major outboards ? Where would you even get an inkling regarding those populations so we can make some sense out of all this. This would also be best to consider production for the most popular horsepower outboards we use (ie. 8-10 horsepower outboards) versus totals regarding all horsepower models. But if the total production regarding all horsepower outboards is an easier number to come by then let's look at that as well.

In my area, we have a publication that is published quarterly called the Washington Checklist. It mostly rates local services (not products). For example, they rate the auto services in the area. Also dentists, etc. In almost all cases, they list the number that were surveyed that produced the ratings. That kind of gives an inkling as to the population that was serviced out there and balances those that provide very good/excellent service versus those that provide fair or less than adequate service and how many made up the representative population. Obviously, a dentist that was rated with only 10 people reporting versus another dentist that had his services rated by say 100, it is harder to skew the results for the 100. Even if some gave more than generous ratings, the population involved helps to provide a more balanced reporting. I have found this very helpful and accurate when we have had our autos serviced. Probably would help bring some understanding of all of this if we could do this for outboards.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/22/2008 05:33:46

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 08:41:06

JD Power does some of that, but I think only for bigger outboards. A Honda 225 compares to a Honda 8 as a V6 Accord compares to a lawn mower.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/22/2008 08:42:06

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:03:34

http://smalloutboards.com/review.htm
http://www.rbbi.com/links/outboard.htm
http://marinedirectory.ybw.com/Marine_Directory/products/consumer/reviews.jsp?category_id=3
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/index.htm

There are lots of places to look for details and specs as reported by industry experts and publications.

*buy locally.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:04:48

All valid Larry, but I think it is simpler than that. While a particular engine may have problems, there are thousands of satisfied customers for every major make. They don't become the major players by building garbage. Rantings on both sides are best weighed at minimum value and listen to the moderates. I still think that the only real issues are features that you value and ergonomics and believe those should be the decision makers. There are no best engines, just best for you.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3448 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 13:01:23

Dave - Agree !

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:10:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 Dave - Agree !
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Then someone needs to tell the "if it ain't Honda, it's crap" crowd.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:57:03

Per the Machinist Handbook (Which is a very thick book)

Honda 225 / Honda 8 V6 Accord /lawn mower = Rule26b

paulj

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 22:15:05

I think Randy really has hit the nail on the head -- they are all good. I went with the Tohatsu as it was lighter and cheaper and . . . my intention is sailing not motoring. Whatever you get just make sure you maintain it well so, when youneed it, you have a reliable engine.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 09:58:42

With typical sailboat usage and proper care... all 3 popular brands will last a loooong time.

Clean & fresh fuel.
Clean oil in proper amounts.
Flush engine with every use and rinse the exterior. (saltwater)

Not rocket science, this. (yoda speak)

Edited by - on

williamtbecker
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 22:26:33

Keeping with the Honda questions- Has anyone tried to do a conversion from a short shaft to an extra-long shaft? I found a very good deal on a used honda 9.9, but it is a shorter shaft (I measured 21" from transom to prop center, seemed short to me). But I'd be very happy to buy this motor and convert it, if it is possible. Anyone know if this has been done, and if its reasonably easy?

Thanks,
-Will

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 14:11:26

Not sure if it matters to anyone else but Honda's warranty is 5 years vice 2 for the Tohatsu. That is the selling point for me. I am buying two and decided to go with the Hondas. About 1000 more but 3 more years of warranty coverage.

Edited by - on

MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 10:49:26

I shoulda bought the Yamaha...

As part of launching our new C-250 (in June 2008), we've had some serious problems with our Honda Outboard:

...

The absolutely worst-case scenario, wife-scarring (and scaring) event was our experience with our NEW outboard engine. Honda made a substantial blunder with our outboard engine, and this could have been disastrous. After motoring around in very, very tight marinas - filled with weekend yahoos - with several near-misses, I discovered that the F/N/R shift lever was not connected to the linkage inside the housing. There were several occasions that required me to make a 3-point turn and/or shift into/out of N or F/R, and the shifter felt sloppy and the prop didn't always engage on the first shift. This was puzzling to me, but I attributed it to my lack of experience with this new engine. However, after slamming into a neighbor's dock when I couldn't get the engine into neutral and securing the boat, we pulled the cover off the engine and discovered that the shift lever rod was NOT connected to the linkage. Surprise! The rod was there with the appropriate washer and cotter pin, but it was NOT inserted into the linkage. This would work somewhat, but not correctly or consistently. This could have resulted in a great deal of property damage as I wound my way around million dollar yachts on Saturday afternoon; Monday morning might have found my insurance company contacting Honda Marine about a product liability situation. I'm very, very disappointed in Honda's quality control. (And I'm a Honda Guy from WAY back - starting with my 1976 Honda Civic!)

Here are more details:

Here's what the improperly-assembled outboard engine shift linkage looked like. Right behind the gold-ish colored connecting rod is a black lever. The rod is supposed to be inserted through a hole in the lever and secured with the cotter pin. Amazingly, the cotter pin IS installed although the rod is not inserted into the lever. I wonder what the assembly line worker and/or the QC inspector was thinking when this was moving through the factory.

Here's another view of the same screw-up:

Looks like a simple thing to fix, right? I thought so. Although it took me about an hour, I WAS able to correctly insert the connecting rod into the lever and re-secure the cotter pin. In order to reconnect the shift lever, I had to move the engine lever to the FORWARD position. As I was pulling on the connecting rod - with my BARE hands - the lever inside the engine BROKE OFF. Mind you, I could not exert anywhere NEAR the force that can be applied using the shift lever; having this fail in my hands was dumbfounding. The lever is made of plastic, by the way.

So, with assistance from a friend, I hauled the 130 pound outboard engine off the transom, over the coaming, and up the dock to the car. After the outboard is repaired, I get to repeat the whole process in reverse.

The Honda dealer has told me that this will be "seven to ten days!" to repair this. (He was not very happy about me bad-mouthing Honda in his store which features mostly Honda products.) There may be a delay to get parts, unless I want to pay $25 to "overnight" any critical parts. I was thinking that, since this is such a gross error on Honda's part that they might want to do something drastic to make me happy. Nothing so far.

In the meantime, I'm paying $300/month for the dock at which my boat sits dead in the water.

THANKS, Honda! I hope you enjoy the profit you earned on the $3k outboard engine I purchased, because it will likely be the last Honda product I ever buy.

Fuming on the dock,
Martin

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2008 : 08:46:58

My Honda 8 hp extra long shaft power thrust electric start is about 4 years old. It has worked great, and the large 4 bladed prop had pushed me into 4 foot seas and 15 knot winds without problem when I had to.
I don't know if specs have changed since then but there were three considerations which influenced my decision at the time:
1 the honda had an external pull cord vs the Yamaha having none, this disqualified the Yamaha immediately

2 According to a Honda technical rep I talked to at the Atlanta boat show, the 8 hp is better for a sailboat than the 10. The reason is a different cam which causes it to produce more low end torque, which is what you want in a sailboat engine

3 the high output alternator, which puts out about 6 amps at idle. You cannot hear the engine at that speed. Perfect for charging up your batteries while anchored out on a week's vacation.

4 the 10 inch 4 bladed prop, it gets a good bite when needed, especially in reverse.

the biggest con is the heaviness, that's why I installed a Garhauer lifting davit at the stern to help install/remove the engine.

If the Yamaha still has no external pull cord, why would you want to take a chance on a non starting motor if the battery dies?

I also installed a Marinco twist lock trolling motor plug in my transom for the electrical connection. Makes removal very easy and clean. Keep it lubed with dielectric grease and no problems.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2008 : 09:37:32

Frank,

I may have to look into that Marinco Twist Lock Plug. Right now, I have the outboard wires and the solar panel wires all going thru this narrow hole which I then have globbed up with some sealant/ 3M 4200.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2008 : 15:35:16

I've had 2 of those "Sears air-cooled jobbers" (7.5 hp) on our C-22. The first was an open engine unit, basically a lawn mower engine with a prop, and sounded like one. Bought it for $150 to replace the British Seagull that came with the boat. The second one, also 7.5 hp, had a cowl, but was still noisy. They were both fairly reliable for a few years, but then gave problems every year. About 10 years later than I should have, I bought a 4 stroke 5 hp Merc. and haven't regretted it since, except that IO should have opted for 4 hp.

For our C-25, we bought a 9.8 hp 25" shaft elec. start Nissan right after Christmas and love it!

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/29/2008 15:36:33

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 16:37:08

I have been reading this thread with great interest.

My 1978 Chrysler 10hp engine got stalled in some weeds while in forward gear; I couldn't get it to nuetral so I can start it. It has to be in nuetral.
Had to get back to the marina without a motor; very difficult using the tiller and rudder to sculley back.

Now that the motor is on the blocks and fearing the bad news, I may start looking for a 4 stroke new motor.

Keep the information coming guys. The new motors are less noisy and smokey.

I hate being without a motor.

Deric

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 17:28:38

Martin, service is a huge factor. As you already know, any of these motors will serve you well. I don't feel its a Mercedes-Toyota question. All are fairly equal. Besides future service from a local dealer, my considerations were price and weight.
Steve A

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 20:03:27

Hope its not a Toyota - Mercedes question since Mercedes (+VW & BMW) rank at the bottom of the JD Powers initial and 6 month quality ranking (well engineered but poorly assembled and poor quality control) and Toyota is consistently at or near the top. You can get a lot of milage out of name recognition in cars and outboards.

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