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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/22/2008 : 10:42:31

My tax return just came in and I am finally able to buy new sails for our C-25 (1983). I know a lot of folks have purchased sails from Gary at Ullman, but they seem to be out of stock for C-25 sails.
I am looking for a new main and 135% furling genoa with foam luff,UV protection, C-25 insignia, 4 boat numbers. Mack sails gave me a quote of $2,000. Last year Gary quoted me around $1,500.

I don't want to wait too long for these sails. Does anyone have a recommendation for this sail package?

1983 C-25, Standard rig, swing keel

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:22:35

I just rec'd the genoa I ordered last October.
My recommendation is to order from someone locally or someone best positioned to give you after purchase service.
I'm going to buy a new mainsail and want it for next season, I will probably buy from Gary at Ullman or From North Sails ... I'll order it well in advance.
I've used North Sails for repairs on my old sails and have rec'd excellent service.

Money burning a hole in your pocket...Enjoy the feeling for a while.

Edited by - stampeder on 04/22/2008 12:04:59

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 12:52:08

I suspect you will see a huge difference in cost between Mack and many other sailmakers. The mack sails will generally cost more unless they downgrade and quote a different sailcloth than what they usually use. The Mack website indicates they mostly sell their sails out of the higher quality Challenge High Aspect sailcloth which is less prone to stretching. This is similar to the Quantum sails I recently purchased. Most other sailmakers use Challenge High Modulus sailcloth or the less expensive bottom grade that Challenge makes which I believe is called Challenge Performance.

This is an individual thing. The stock sails have lasted for eons for many and that was not made out of Challenge High Aspect sailcloth...so it becomes your decision whether to go with the higher grade matl. The weight of the fabric is also different for these sailcloths. The less expensive sailcloth will generally be sold in a heavier weight than for High Aspect matl.

I also suspect that mack makes the sails custom or at least probably do not have them on the shelf. this again because their website indicates they go with the higher grade matl.

You really can get into the nitty gritty comparing the sailcloths since Challenge provides their spec sheets on all their matls. So...if comparing cost, you are generally paying for sailcloth. the less costly the sail, chances are the lower grade "Dacron" they are using. But I have rarely if ever seen anyone on this Forum complain about sails they have purchased from whomever. My thought is that it is only after several years or more that the stretch becomes more noticable and what would one compare that to unless they were so use to sailing on a number of boats with different quality sails that they really could offer an expert opinion.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/22/2008 12:56:48

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 13:00:07

Cruising Direct, a subsidiary of North Sails, sells stock C25 sails at what appear to be reasonable prices.

[url="http://www.cruisingdirect.com/InStockCatalinaSails.htm"]Cruising Direct Catalina Sails[/url]

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 13:20:05

I called Cruising Direct and talked to guy named Dan. He quoted me a price of $1715. North Sails 4800 dacron. No warranty.

We are weekend sailors. No racing. No fancy stuff. Do you think this is the way to go?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:08:30

Try [url="http://www.nationalsail.com/"]National Sail[/url] in Florida.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:14:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 I called Cruising Direct and talked to guy named Dan. He quoted me a price of $1715. North Sails 4800 dacron. No warranty.

We are weekend sailors. No racing. No fancy stuff. Do you think this is the way to go?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you might have misunderstood the part about no warranty. I bought a mainsail and roller furling 140% jib for my C&C 35 from Cruising Direct, and they told me North warrants the materials and workmanship, but they won't warrant that they fit, because the basis for the savings is that you have to measure your own boat for the sails. My guess is, however, that North makes enough C25 sails that they won't need your measurements to make them fit. I measured mine and they fit perfectly. I use the boat for bay sailing, coastal cruising and some racing, and they're competitive on the race course. (It'd be nice if they were full cut, deck sweepers, but I've now reached the age where roller furling fits my needs better.) They're a little lightly constructed for long distance passagemaking, but they're just fine for my purposes.

Incidently, when I bought my C25 new in 1981 (hull No. 2554), I ordered it without sails, and ordered a complete set of racing sails from North. They sent me a set of sails, and when I put them on, they didn't fit. I learned that they had sent me sails for a Capri 25, not a Catalina 25, as I had clearly specified. I sent them a Catalina 25 brochure, to make it absolutely clear to them which boat I had. They told me they would have to contact Catalina, to get the specifications for the sails. At first, I was told Catalina didn't want to give them up, because they made and sold their own sails (which, at that time were really crappy), but they realized they couldn't stop it. In any event, the first sails that North ever made for a C25 were made for my boat, and they were blazing fast.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/22/2008 14:17:26

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 14:50:22

Get as many quotes as you can and try and try to get all of the options priced separately if at all possible. Doing so will allow you to price apples for apples. Stuff like the sail bag, 4 numbers, racing stripes are normally going to be included items at your bigger lofts - not so inclusive in the little guys shop where there isn't a low wage earner to put those items on a finished sail.

Inquire about the materials, Dacron, Challenge Pentax, different weights - Ask what they would recommend.

If you can pay cash, don't be ashamed to ask if they offer any sort of discount for paying cash. Also let them know that you are considering buying both sails together but if you have to you will buy just one.

If you plan on paying a bit more for the service afterward then you want to ask a few questions at the beginning. If you have someone local, go to the loft and get them to show you the difference in materials. Ask about lifespan, see why they would recommend a 135 over a 150 or a 155 over a 135% headsail. Do they think loose footed is better than standard or should you get a shelf foot. If local, will the sailmaker take a cruise with you to check out his work and help you learn how to trim that exact sail. Will they come down and measure before they start work?

You can probably tell by my diatribe above that I prefer the local guys, but I also know that sometimes a competitive price is more important to the tight budget. Therefore here are some lofts you might have never considered....

http://www.hallettcanvasandsails.com/quotes.html
http://www.rollytasker.com/dealer-locations-links.asp
http://www.fxsails.com/
http://na.northsails.com/contact_us.taf?_function=detail&loft_uid1=13&_UserReference=7F00000146EB2D8C5E97C9FAF385480E3D7D
http://www.doylesails.com/maps-usa.htm
http://www.quantumsails.com/sails/quote_request.aspx
http://www.cruisingdirect.com/
http://www.sobstad.com/
http://www.haarsticksailmakers.com/
http://www.ullmansails.com/
http://www.hood-sails.com/
http://www.epsails.com/
http://www.ukhalsey.com/
http://www.lidgardsails.com/
http://www.sailmaker.com/
http://www.shoresails.com/

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 15:19:42

WOW! D Wolff. Fantastic list of lofts and advice.
Thank you !!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 06:58:54

additional thing I came across today that provides some insight into cloth and cut

Wonder how many of you have been around long enough to remember those? Quantum San Diego's Keith Lorence tackles this one.

Q: When I look at sail lofts and their offerings they split between cruising and racing and some times performance cruising. When it comes to cruising the options seems to be Dacron and crosscut. Only one sail loft advertises mitre cut. Question: Is there an advantage to mitre cut genoas as one of the lofts claim? Can Dacron be used to make tri-radial sails or is the only option fro tri-radial some kind of composite?

Cheers,

Peter
S/V Tangerine
C&C 35 MK II

A: Most all sail lofts offer both racing and cruising sails. There are some lofts that offer only cruising sails largely due to the highly specialized nature and complex construction of racing sails. Those lofts prefer to stick with the tried and true Dacron sails and often build them using conventional (cross cut) construction. This fits with many traditionalists, and there is a niche for these sails for those sailors.

Again, the vast majority of lofts will make both. There are many fine fabrics to choose from, beginning with Dacron, (very durable and a standard of the industry) to Spectra laminates, and a whole bunch in between. Some cruising laminates use Vectran as the primary fiber and, like Spectra laminates, are tri-radial in construction. Laminated sails are generally a slight bit lighter and because of the higher modulus of the fiber, they stretch less. They generally do not last as long as a Dacron sail, but have longer performance life span. They are however prone to Mildew and should be taken down when not in use for long periods.

As for Mitre cut sails, that was a fashion prior to the 70's as Dacron, and it's predecessors Rayon and Nylon, were very stretchy and aligning the panels along the stronger fill angle reduced stretch by taking advantage of the fill yarns. These days, fabrics are far more stable, (through calendaring and finishing), and the need for the mitre cut has gone away.
Dacron as a radial cut sail is generally inefficient due to the inherent weaving issues. It is simply not possible to achieve a strong warp in a Dacron sail. We tried it in the 80's with a little success, but not enough to overcome the added labor
.
At the end of the day, a crosscut Dacron sail made of quality fabric is a great option for cruising, next in line is a radial sail made from one of the laminates.Many choices, and you are best advised to talk to one of the quality sailmakers in your area for some advise.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 07:47:54

Excellent thread guys. Duane, nice q&a. Lawrence talked in terms I can understand and this will help me tremendously when I replace my (original) main and head sails. Now I just need to make the loose foot/not main question

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

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USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 10:00:50

Cate;

Check the website for epsails, from the list of links above. EP (Elliot Pattison) Made a furling head sail for my friends Cat 27 with luff foam and a sun protection stripe. Very nice sail. Check the EP in-stock portion of the website, because the first sail they made for my friend, they built to the Cat 25 specs, not the 27's. If it is still in their stock, they'll probably make you a deal on it.

Paul

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 11:45:38

Dave,
I went with loose foot based primarily and really only on comments on this Forum. I really did not know there was an option until it was discussed here.

having gone with a main sail loose foot, I see no negative reasons to go that route. I pretty much put it up, take down and use it the same as before. But you definitely can see that the shape of the sail is uniform at the bottom because it is a loose foot. Other than noticing that, it is sort of a benign effect for me. I would think because the sail shape is uniform down to the itty bitty bottom, it would make sense that this is better for performance, though, I really cannot indicate the performance difference attributable to just the loose foot. overall performance has improved noticeably being able to primarily head into the wind better since I now have new sails verses the blown out originals.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 14:49:57

http://na.northsails.com/Racing_Sails/RacingSolutionsShelfLoose.htm

found this while searching for something else .....Notice the name

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 14:04:49

There must have been some kind of misunderstanding about the Cruising Direct sails. Their website says $725.

http://www.cruisingdirect.com/InStockCatalinaSails.htm

I recently bought a 150 Genoa from them. They knocked 15% off the $625 price because I ordered it at the Annapolis boat show last fall. I've got a 170 Genoa that they custom-made for me. It was about $600 two years ago.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:35:41

one of the oldest and largest sail lofts of our kind in the world

http://www.atlanticsailtraders.com/

regards.ray

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:54:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I recently bought a 150 Genoa from them. They knocked 15% off the $625 price because I ordered it at the Annapolis boat show last fall. I've got a 170 Genoa that they custom-made for me<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell us about the 170. When do you use it, do you like, use it alot and etc...

thx

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:32:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I recently bought a 150 Genoa from them. They knocked 15% off the $625 price because I ordered it at the Annapolis boat show last fall. I've got a 170 Genoa that they custom-made for me<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell us about the 170. When do you use it, do you like, use it alot and etc...

thx

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">With something that big, why not just go to a drifter?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 23:15:00

I believe that a 170 is a drifter.

Edited by - on

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