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taking on water...

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/25/2008 : 16:14:55

We're taking on about 1/2" salt water per day (last year we were completely dry). I've checked the thru hulls and the keel cable entry, they're all dry...all the lockers are dry...The floor access hatches don't allow inspection of the area around the keel hinge.

I'm concerned about cutting access holes into the sole...any ideas?
Many thanks...

Jerry

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 17:48:20

Check your keel housing.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 20:13:00

Don - that looks like a nasty bit of repair...how did you reconstruct the cabin surfaces?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 21:34:20

Jerry,

I have a fin keel. The picture is from a repair in the Tech Tips section.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.asp"]Swing Keel Trunk Repair[/url]

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 21:39:10

Don - Found it, thanks!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 08:33:00

Terrifying looking isn't it! These boats look so good when they are healthy but so scary when they are not.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 12:27:14

My concern is that after the cabin gets all chopped up, we still won't locate the leak. It's really just a trickle...from somewhere...

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 15:08:02

Where is the water collecting?
Does it get 1/2" deeper every day or does it stop at 1/2" then refill after you cleaned it up?
Does it come in when sitting at a slip or does it come in when sailing?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 16:23:59

Did you retrieve the boat onto a trailer last year, or have a yard haul it? If the latter, perhaps the yard allowed the keel to fall at some point, cracking the forward edge of the trunk. That's part of the damage being repaired in the tech tip. Also, grounding on a rock can do similar damage when the keel falls off the rock. If you have the boat out of the water, you could put some water in the bilge and possibly see where it comes out.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/26/2008 16:28:45

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 21:55:02

All great questions and I am grateful for the interest...the boat was hauled for the winter by a yard - last year it was bone dry in the bilge.
The boat is now in the water and collects 1/2" per day, just sitting at the slip...I really want to avoid cutting access/inspection points all over the cabin sole. I think I may opt for an automatic bilge pump...which gets me to issues of batteries/charging/amp hours, etc...of course, if it is a crack in the forward edge of the trunk, will sailing make it worse...???

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 22:11:19

I think you should talk to the yard manager about a short-haul to examine the trunk area from below and try the water test. You were bone-dry when hauled, and now you're not--something apparently happened during hauling and blocking. They could at least give you a short-haul to check it out. They aren't going to want to do it during the busy launching season, but you're taking water. And an automatic bilge pump on a battery is a shaky proposition when you know it's going to be running. Can you make use of shore power via a charger or converter?

Can sailing make it worse? I'd suggest, if it is a cracked trunk, any stresses could make it worse--the trunk is the structure that holds the keel straight and upright against whatever the seas are doing to you. That's 1500# of iron and a lot of hyrodynamic forces down there.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/26/2008 22:14:50

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 22:13:30

I assume it's salt water and you've already checked all the obvious spots like thru-hull transducers and valves, etc. I'd really want to know where it came from. If so, I'd pull it out, It may never get worse than the current rate. Hate to find out the opposite while far away from the slip.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 08:11:57

Can it be hauled and the swing keel dropped so that an inspection of the trunk would be possible from the outside without any cutting?

Ed

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 21:40:02

live with the small leak, enjoy the boat, and when you haul it out, check it out,
you can install an electric bilge pump , I did and it takes care of the small leakage,

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 08:30:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 live with the small leak, enjoy the boat, and when you haul it out, check it out,
you can install an electric bilge pump , I did and it takes care of the small leakage,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Unless, of course, it turns into a big leak and/or your battery dies from constantly running the bilge pump.

Haul the boat. You'll sleep better.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 08:46:19

Yea, the current thought is to haul the boat, let her dry, do a visual inspection and if that shows nothing, add water into the bilge...
The actual leak concerns me less than the threat of structural damage. At a rate of about 2 gallons per day, it's too much to ignore. I've been trying to think of worst case scenarios - should we be sailing...bouncing around a bit...heeled and moving along...and then the condition suddenly gets worse...we're only a bay, but still. The whole pleasure and relaxation of sailing will be ruined if we are constantly prepared to ditch in a moments notice...imaging if you had to wear parachutes every-time you flew...?

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 11:20:18

Still wondering if the water gets 2" deeper everyday, or does it stop taking on water when it gets to 2" deep?

A couple gallons per day is too much of a problem to put off til another day. Certainly, not the kind of a problem I'd want to rely on an electric bilge pump to deal with.

Can you remove the wood components of the keel trunk cover? Mine removes with a dozen wood screws.
Also, I've removed all of my cabin floor boards at various times to inspect my hull and to clean it up. Seems to me that you should be able to see pretty much any suspect area.

Do you have a sense of where the leak is, such as forward or aft.

Per a previous discussion on this topic, I think the advantages of the bilge compartments manifest themselves in this situation by isolating where the water is coming in.
If I were in your situation, I'd remove all the floor access points, lift up all the settee lids, get all your stuff off the floor - empty out the water and get down on your hands and knees with a flashlight and some chalk or talcum powder. You need to identify from which end of the boat the water is coming from, and you need to know if its coming from the bottom. It'll take time and patience. If you are to convince the Marina that it's their fault, you need to have specific info.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 12:35:31

It's about 1/2 inch per day, and I haven't let it get past 4 days yet...the cabin is totally stripped out, all the lockers are emptied, the cushions are out, hatch boards, etc (you should see the garage!)I spent several hours meticulously looking everywhere. There are only 2 access hatches in the sole and they are both aft of the keel pin location and a little to port. The far aft area, under the aft berth, both through hulls and their hoses, the forward, port and starboard lockers, are all bone dry - which leads me to think the crack is somewhere forward and to starboard, but there is no way to see anything...I'm going to need some kind of colonoscopy tube...

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 13:13:03

What's the weather been like in your area over the past few weeks?

How long were you out of the water prior to launch?

How many through hulls do you have?

Leaning your way on the keel, just have a few other ideas

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 17:47:40

two gallons of water per day is too much ?? is that right? doesnt seem like a whole lot of water,,

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 18:21:38

I think any water is too much water if you can't find its source.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 18:32:00

Just an observation, but if the damage is similar to the photo that Dlucier posted, adding water to the bilge after hauling won't show up. Is your boat a dinette version? Because I think that my traditional layout has removable wood around the keel trunk. Even though it is expensive, if I ever have damage like that, I will seriously consider converting to a wing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 21:42:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 two gallons of water per day is too much ?? is that right? doesnt seem like a whole lot of water,,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If it was rain water, I might agree--there's only so much rain you can collect. But it's salt water--there shouldn't be a constant leak below the waterline. If it gets worse, the only limit to how much can enter is the time until the boat goes down.

Jerry said earlier he wants to take some trips this year... I wouldn't think he'd want do that in a boat that has a mystery leak below the waterline.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:21:29

Dave - that's exactly right, and the big disappointment...we've been planning some coastal cruising this season, crossing over to CT, exploring the LI North Shore, etc...maybe it is time to investigate a wing keel upgrade...

Edited by - jerlim on 04/29/2008 08:26:16

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:28:07

I'd have trouble sleeping if I knew I was taking on 2 gals a day and didn't know where it was coming from! To me that's a lot of water.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:11:37

Thinking about what might have happened... I'm not sure how a SK should be set down and supported for the winter, but I could imagine that if they did it like a FK (Put most of the weight down on keel blocks and then set up stands keep it from falling over), it could be a problem. It seems to me that setting her down hard on the SK could put a large upward stress, even shock, on the structure holding the pivot pin or toward the aft end of the trunk.

Another thing... Is there something that might have allowed the keel to do a free-fall during the launch process--for example, not securing the winch after having released it last fall to lower the keel? (I'm not familiar with the winch setup for the SK.) I've seen here some results of an apparent free-fall--they were visible cracks on the bottom radiating forward from the forward edge of the trunk. Those would show up if you did a short-haul, and the water in the hull would probably seep out.

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