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knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/29/2008 : 07:50:35

Ok. My new lady goes in the water this Thursday.
As I've mentioned on other posts...there's no money left...;o)
The price of the boat and parking spot has left me without the money I'd like to have used for a) a marine survey and b) sailing lessons.
As I mentioned previously I did get my CYA Whitesail 1 when I was 16 i.e. 30 years ago but I know I still have a lot to learn. The advise on taking a few cruising lessons is very good but I doubt I'll have the time, money or common sense to do it before I take her out the first time. That being said...any pointers and advise from you "masters" will be very appreciated. So I have a few questions.

1) Why does an anchor have both a chain and a length of rope?

2) The user manual says the main and jib halyards are wire. If so from what I can see there's a winch on the mast you use to raise the sails...but do you tie off the wire? on the butterfly cleat below it? No way...what am I missing?

3) I've never used a winch before. Can someone discuss the use of winches and which ones go with which lines. Specifically the main sheet. (They're standard winches with no "clippy-thingys") Do you wrap you mainsheet around the nearest winch a few times then tie it off to the adjacent butterfly cleat? Seems like it'd be hard to ease the main quickly if the sheet's all tied off.

4) How far / How long will a standard gas tank and 9.9 motor push this boat?

Whoops...boss is here...more Q's later.

Thanks,
Peter

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:11:30

My suggestion is to purchase these two DVDs before taking the boat out on the water. Learn to Sail by Steve Colgate and Sailing with Confidence by Bud Foulke. Both were filmed in the eighties, but are packed with the type of information you are asking about. Also explains in detail how to tack the boat and how to gybe. How to anchor and how to pick up a mooring/dock.

The reason an anchor has a length of chain is to keep the pull on the anchor as horizontal as possible. The more chain, the harder it becomes to pull the anchor upward.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:23:05

It sounds to me like you need to find a proficient local sailer and invite him for a sail. It's one thing to be told how to use a winch but to see it is to know it. A winch ratchets one way. You wrap the line one or two times so you're going with the ratchet for tightening and against the ratchet loosening. The stronger the wind, the more you'll appreciate this! The length of chain on your anchor line is to cause your anchor to slip across the bottom as horizontally as possible so as to grab the bottom better. Different guys use different lengths, Mine is the length of my boat. The halyards are (or were originally) rope to wire , so you're cleating the rope end.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:25:50

"4) How far / How long will a standard gas tank and 9.9 motor push this boat?"

Varies a lot with conditions... current, headwinds, chop and swell etc.
Very roughly... at 5kts (half throttle) you'll burn about 1/2 gallon per hour... which gives about 10 MPG or 6 hours on a 3 gallon tank. Add 25% to your trip fuel estimate for a safety margin... you really don't want to run out of fuel at the end of a trip when you're trying to get anchored or into a marina slip.

Trying to make the boat go faster than about 5.5kts under power will make the stern 'squat' and burn lots of extra fuel without much positive effect.

>"winches and which ones go with which lines. Specifically the main sheet. "

You don't use a winch on the main sheet (mainsail control) on a C25. The mainsail is controlled by a line led through a 'block-n-tackle' attached between the end of the boom and the stern of the boat. The blocks give you a mechanical advantage over the boom that is adequate to control the sail by hand. A little 'cam cleat' mounted on the bottom block secures the line in whatever position you want it.

The 'big' winches on the cockpit sides are used to control the 'headsail' (the sail on front of the boat).
The little winches on the cabin top (if you have them) or the mast are used for the halyards... to help raise and lower the sails. C25 sails are easy to raise by hand and the halyard winches are usually only needed for final tensioning.

"I've never used a winch before."

http://www.videos.sailingcourse.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt0EYTxqbK4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfj_RsXztaE&feature=related

Googling on 'sail training videos', learning to sail etc... will give you lots more to watch.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:26:54

I agree--find a sailor to take a spin with you--sailors like to do those things... but do it on a 5-10 knot day. And a DVD or two would help a lot. To the unanswered (so far) questions:

3. The jib sheets go to the winches on the "coamings" (the raised sides of the cockpit). The mainsail does not need a winch--it's multi-part sheeting tackle and "cam cleat" make it easy to adjust.

4. Most 2-stroke engines that size go somewhere around an hour on a gallon of fuel--it will depend on how you run it. Don't try to push the boat past about 5.5 knots--it just wastes ga$.

Some other basics come to mind:

A. You always wrap clockwise around a winch (even though that might seem backward on the port side).

B. Your jib sheets must lead outside of all three shrouds on both sides before you pull the sail up.

C. Never approach a dock any faster than you're willing to hit it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/29/2008 09:36:57

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:54:09

Thanks guys...most helpful.
I've seen the videos on youtube...check out this one if you haven't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGupz_9mGc (Quite Inspirational!!!)
I'm going to look for a how-to video I can download right away.

Why does everyone say 5.5 knots max when 6.3 is the hull speed?

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:55:02

Find someone to go sailing with you.
The kinds of questions you are asking reveal that you really need someone to show you the ropes.

Watch the mast raising videos that were posted recently, and familiarize yourself with your mast raising equipment. Take pictures and post them here if want assistance with identifying the components.
I don't think you'll have any trouble finding someone willing to go with you for an afternoon - sailors are like that.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 10:24:03

Peter,
I agree with most of the advice here, specifically about finding someone to go out with you. I learned how to sail by spending a lot of time capsizing a Sunfish while in between duty stations in the USN. A C-25 is an entirely different kettle of fish to learn from scratch in. It's far too easy to get yourself into trouble without even knowing you're doing so if you simply don't know what you're doing. I recommend [url="http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sailor-Learning-Art-Sailing/dp/0070571317/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209482119&sr=8-1"]The Complete Sailor: Learning the Art of Sailing[/url] as a great book that'll teach you a lot about sailing. Find a sailor who'll go out with you, it shouldn't be hard to do. If you were close to here I wouldn't hesitate to go out with you on your boat, and I think that holds true for basically everyone on here, and sailors in general.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Edit: The reason they recommend 5.5 knots is that as speed increases on a full displacement boat, the power necessary to make it go faster increases by the cube of the speed. If you want to push your hull at full speed, you'll be expending far more energy than if you want to push it a bit slower. Slower gets you better economy, faster gets you there somewhat faster, but at a much greater fuel expense.

Edited by - delliottg on 04/29/2008 10:40:24

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:04:31

Go visit Capt. Jack at the "How-to videos" section of this website.

[url="http://www.latsandatts.net/"]Latitudes & Attitudes[/url]

Stampeder's right, you're asking some pretty fundamental questions which leads me to think you could find yourself in a heap of trouble before you realize it. Not meant to frighten you, but Lake Erie can become rather unforgiving rather quickly.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:13:51

Congratulations on your new boat. You're bound to enjoy it for years to come.

The advice on this Forum is great for participants to learn about the C-25/C-250/Capri-25 boats and how to use and maintain them, but be careful not to assume everything is always easy and fun.

If you are sailing onto Lake Erie out of the Turkey Point, Ontario area this afternoon, for example, you may want to be well prepared for handling some heavy seas and moderately strong winds. The northwest wind today could blow you miles out of the marina very quickly and make it hard to get back comfortably.

Today you might need to handle the boat itself, handle possible emergency communications, and have alternative plans for equipment failures and rescue. Please take it one step at a time. We all want to hear about the nice sailing adventures on your C-25 this Spring, Summer, and Fall and after that.

Here's the marine forecast:
OPEN LAKE FORECAST FOR LAKE ERIE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE CLEVELAND OH
914 AM EDT TUE APR 29 2008
FOR WATERS BEYOND FIVE NAUTICAL MILES OF SHORE ON LAKE ERIE
.SYNOPSIS...WEAK TROUGH AVERAGE 29.90 INCHES FROM SOUTHERN NEW
ENGLAND TO OHIO WILL GRADUALLY WEAKEN TODAY. HIGH PRESSURE 30.20
INCHES WILL MOVE ACROSS LAKE ERIE TONIGHT MOVING EAST OF THE LAKE
ON WEDNESDAY. A WARM FRONT WILL MOVE INTO OHIO WEDNESDAY
NIGHT...POSSIBLY STAYING NEAR LAKE ERIE THURSDAY AND FRIDAY. LOW
PRESSURE 29.50 INCHES ACROSS WISCONSIN WILL BEGIN TO FILL AND TAKE
THE WARM FRONT AND COLD FRONT ACROSS THE LAKE IN SUCCESSION FRIDAY
INTO SATURDAY.
LEZ061-162>169-292000-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM RIPLEY TO BUFFALO NY-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM MAUMEE BAY TO RENO BEACH-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM RENO BEACH TO THE ISLANDS-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM THE ISLANDS TO VERMILION-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM VERMILION TO AVON POINT-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM AVON POINT TO WILLOWICK-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM WILLOWICK TO GENEVA-ON-THE-LAKE-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM GENEVA-ON-THE-LAKE TO CONNEAUT-
LAKE ERIE OPEN WATERS FROM CONNEAUT OH TO RIPLEY NY-
914 AM EDT TUE APR 29 2008
.THIS AFTERNOON...NORTHWEST WINDS 10 TO 20 KNOTS BECOMING WEST.
WAVES 3 TO 5 FEET SUBSIDING TO 1 TO 3 FEET.
.TONIGHT...NORTHWEST WINDS 10 TO 20 KNOTS BECOMING VARIABLE 5 TO
15 KNOTS AFTER MIDNIGHT. WAVES 1 TO 3 FEET.

Happy sailing!!!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:27:48

Oh, and Peter... Do you have a VHF radio aboard? Have you read up on its use--which channels to use for what, and how to make a call? Cell phones are useful, but a VHF broadcasts to everyone within several miles--other boats, Coast Guard, etc., if you're in trouble. We've discussed this in other threads here--you can use the Search function to see the debates... Many sailing books include info on VHF use. In general, for a Great Lakes sailor, I suggest a copy of Chapman Piloting--it's the bible on how boats should behave around each other, and many other topics.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/29/2008 11:28:42

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:29:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Go visit Capt. Jack at the "How-to videos" section of this website.

[url="http://www.latsandatts.net/"]Latitudes & Attitudes[/url]

Stampeder's right, you're asking some pretty fundamental questions which leads me to think you could find yourself in a heap of trouble before you realize it. Not meant to frighten you, but Lake Erie can become rather unforgiving rather quickly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks. I hadn't seen the Captain Jack stuff...looks good.
You see...I'm not sure if the previous owner is going to come out with me the first time or not....and I'm not naive enough to not be frightened. I've got a nice calm inner bay right near my port so I don't plan on going out into the middle of unforgiving Lake Erie just yet. With that said...go ahead frighten me! Give me your hypothetical "heap of trouble" situations. I'm pretty clear on avoiding accidental gibes. I worry most about worrying when the boat starts to heel. Capsizing was a really fun thing to do in the Lasers...but something I want to avoid in the C25....of course the keel's a lot heavier...any of you guys ever manage to capsize one of these babies?
I figure if its a fairly calm, nice day we'll motor out about 500 yards from the port, anchor, christen the boat in our own special way for a couple hours, then try sailing a bit...figuring if things get out of hand I'll drop the sails, motor back, and sign up for some dam lessons. The PO told me he'd never sailed before and when he bought the boat in the Bahamas he learned by himself and even ended up sailing through a gail up the US coast.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:32:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Oh, and Peter... Do you have a VHF radio aboard? Have you read up on its use--which channels to use for what, and how to make a call? Cell phones are useful, but a VHF broadcasts to everyone within several miles--other boats, Coast Guard, etc., if you're in trouble. We've discussed this in other threads here--you can use the Search function to see the debates... Many sailing books include info on VHF use. In general, for a Great Lakes sailor, I suggest a copy of Chapman Piloting--it's the bible on how boats should behave around each other, and many other topics.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As a Sea Cadet I obtained my Restricted Radio Telephone Operators License, so I know how to make a call. I know nothing about the channels though. Can you tell me anything or direct me to the thread?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:34:08

Agree with all comments. There are some things that vary and each person has their own preferences when there is a choice (ie. winches).

In regards to the outboard and std sized tank. The 9.9hp 2 stroke outboards are generally not as efficient as the 9.9hp 4 stroke outboards. Most of our boats came with 2 stroke outboards initially and the 6 gallon tank was the standard tank. Then when many switched to 4 stroke outboards, the efficiency went up to about 1/2 gallon per hour at about 5 mph. This is about about 30% more efficient than the 2 stroke outboards. Again this varies with speed and outboard. Since the 9.9hp outboards were more efficient, many manufacturers downsized the gas tank to a 3 gallon tank. So, some of us have 6 gallon tanks, while others may have a 3 gallon tank. You always operate conservatively when figuring out how far you can go on the tank of gas. Also, if you going against a current, you have to factor that in when figuring just how far you can go on each gallon. So keep that in mind.

In regards to the winches on the port and starboard side of the cockpit, as others have said, these are for controlling the head sail. As to which winch to use, that is something I would be curious as to how others respond. I mostly go single-handed sailing or sometimes with others that are not that sailing oriented. I generally will use the winch on the leeward side only in light wind conditons will use the leeward winch to control the headsail when there are very light winds. I almost always have the line turn on the leeward winch and use the windward side winch to control the headsail for most wind conditions. This is because i am usually sitting o the windward side and i want quick and easy access to the line to control the headsail. But this also means the line is taut going across the cockpit and if there are others onboard, it makes for a bit of tight sitting when tacking and the line is brought to the other side. I suspect some will mainly use the winch on the leeward side more frequently than I. I think it depends on who you have onboard and who wants to help control the sails.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/29/2008 11:34:49

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:41:59

Uhhhh... Peter.... Let's save the "special way" for after you're back at the dock--please? You need all of your faculties to handle a keelboat safely. You asked for advice....

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/29/2008 11:46:08

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:01:07

There are reportedly 2 kinds of Sailors. Those that have gone aground and those that are about to..

On the Gulf Coast it is said that the best way to catch fish, if you are new to fishing, is to buy cases of beer, run 10-15 miles offshore, stop and turn on the VHF radio and ask, "Who's Thirsty".

You might want to buy some beer and make some new friends that are sailors.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:12:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Uhhhh... Peter.... Let's save the "special way" for after you're back at the dock--please? You need all of your faculties to handle a keelboat safely. You asked for advice....

Your C-25 won't capsize. It could possibly get blown over, with the help of a big wave, to the point where the rigging hits the water, but I haven't heard of anyone here having that happen. The further she heels, the less force there is on the sails, and the more leverage there is from the keel. It takes a lot to get her past 45 degrees--just don't go out when the forecast is above 20 (for now) and you'll be OK.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Assuming the sails are down and the bow is anchored is there anything to be concerned about keeping an eye on... for example if you're spending the night on the water...or parking for a few hours of sleep etc.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:25:35

No one sleeps their first night on the hook, many never sleep well on the hook.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:37:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 No one sleeps their first night on the hook, many never sleep well on the hook.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What does "on the hook" mean?

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:39:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Uhhhh... Peter.... Let's save the "special way" for after you're back at the dock--please? You need all of your faculties to handle a keelboat safely. You asked for advice....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not sure what you think I meant....I meant....sex...not drugs/alcohol.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 12:47:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Assuming the sails are down and the bow is anchored is there anything to be concerned about keeping an eye on... for example if you're spending the night on the water...or parking for a few hours of sleep etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You'd want to keep an eye on the movement of your boat. Is your anchor holding? Which Frank points out, is why many sailors don't sleep well at anchor.
When I anchor overnight, I only do so if I can tie-off to a tree on shore - or at least have two well set anchors when there's no tree available.
I have a GPS with an anchor setting that alerts me if the anchor slips.
You need heavy chain on your anchor to keep the anchor deployed at the proper angle on the bottom.

Are you talking about heading south to Long Point Bay or Inner Bay?
Call your local Coast Guard and ask them what channel you should monitor on your VHF, and ask them who you should file a sail plan with - tell them its your maiden voyage. If you head into one of the little bays there and tool around you should be okay.
I still think you should find someone to ride along for an hour or so. If you ask around at your marina, I'm sure you won't have a problem finding someone who would be happy to show you how smart they are.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:11:08

"On the hook" is the same as at anchor. The anchor is not just weight at the bottom of a line. It has to grab, or "hook" the bottom in order to hold. You wouldn't be able to carry a big enough anchor for it to hold your boat otherwise.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:20:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by knightwind
 Not sure what you think I meant....I meant....sex...not drugs/alcohol.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Never mind--keep that out at anchor ("on the hook").

I can't speak for Canada, but in the USA (generally), channels are as follows:

1 & 2 - NOAA weather reports

16 - Emergency calling (pan-pans, maydays, securites). Many use this for non-emergency, but the USCG is trying to discourage that.

9 - non-emergency calls to other boats and marinas.

13 - talking to commercial vessels and bridge operators around ports.

68 - monitored by some marinas, pump-out boats, etc.

69,71,72,78 - switch to these to talk after making contact on ch. 9.

21,22,23 - USCG has calls switch to these from Ch. 16

70 - DO NOT USE--reserved for DSC transmissions.

Most others: commercial use only.

The US Coast Guard requires that if you have your VHF on and are not actively using it, that you monitor ch. 16 to be able to assist another vessel in an emergency. The CG occasionally makes a request on 16 to all boaters in an area to watch, assist, and report back on certain situations. Also, naval vessels (including subs around here) warn boats away from them on 16--you don't want to miss that.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/29/2008 13:29:04

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:33:44

If you are spending the night "on the hook". You will understand why it is important to have a length of chain on the anchor. With 20' of chain, a Fortress/Guardian anchor dug into the Florida sand, a full size air mattress between the settees and the right anchorage, I sleep better on the boat than I do at home.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:41:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 There are reportedly 2 kinds of Sailors. Those that have gone aground and those that are about to..

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've always heard that the two types of sailors are those that admit that they've run aground and liars...

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 16:15:38

Most of western Lake erie is firm mud or sand - practically any anchor made will hold well in that kind of bottom. I have a 16# Danforth with 10 feet of chain, and a fourteen would probably be plenty. For overnight, 7:1 scope is fine - 7 times the depth plus the water surface to the deck (freeboard).

Edited by - on

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.