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First time out in any wind, what should I attempt?

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/23/2008 : 19:41:40

I've had the boat out a couple times in very light (2-3 kts) wind and I have only had the main up, jib is a hank-on. I've sailed small cats but this will be the first trip out in 6 kts wind. What should I try to accomplish on the first weekend? What should be my goals and what should I do to remain safe? We intend to stay inland in the St Johns river and it is quit a large playground. We are leaving all the friends and family on shore so that we can concentrate on sailing. Any advice will be appreciated. Anyone want to give lessons?

Thanks,
Ed

Ed
HisHorse
1979 SR/SK #1393
Green Cove Springs, FL

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 19:52:40

Throw a floating seat cushion off the boat and go back to retrieve it. Do that a lot. It'll give you a target to sail toward rather than simply letting the wind take you where it will. It's also a critical skill in the event of crew overboard.

Keep in mind the wind direction and current. If you sail out going downwind/downstream, it will take you a lot longer to get back than you might think. So, as you leave your slip/dock/mooring, sail into the wind for a while. Remember, after you've been out for a while, you'll be tired and ready to go home and still have work to do to get there.

Leave the coldies on the dock for after you return but, drink lots of water and don't forget to eat. Avoid junk food but don't try to be gourmet.

Let the Admiral steer the boat and...........

Try not to yell.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 20:06:20

Ed, someone has misrepresented sailing to you. 6 knots is light wind.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 20:21:22

In my mind it is a gale! It's the fear of not knowing if I know how to respond to whatever happens.
Ed

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 21:03:49

6 knots of breeze and you'll be lucky if the boat moves much more than 2-3 kts. Frank is absolutely correct. I read the title and was going to say something smart like "practice hanging on" then I read the 6 kt comment. But I'd recommend trying what John mentions above or better yet, just try to keep the boat moving at a steady and consistent speed.

It might sound ludicrous to you now, but sailing is actually easier in the 10 to 15 range. At 6 knots the wind is usually spotty and the boat has no momentum. If you tack poorly or sail out of a windline the boat will come to a standstill. Put up your jib too...especially if it is that light. And here is my reasoning - many sailors aren't going out when the wind is that light, take advantage of the lack of boats around you to work out the kinks tacking, raising and lowering etc.

I realize you are still a bit nervous about this so throw on your life jacket, attach your tether to your harness and clip on when going forward.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 22:26:33

Seems like there are one or two folks here on the St. Johns R... I'd think you'll get a response about some mentoring.

Light air (5-10) prevents you from pointing as high (toward the wind) as you can in 10-15... Start out upwind, doing some tacks, and get an idea of how close to the wind you can get and keep the sails filled and the boat moving nicely. Pick a target on the opposite shore and see what it takes to make progress toward it, tacking as necessary. (Remember, always wind clockwise around a winch--2-3 wraps will generally do it.) You'll get a feeling for the angles you can tack through, which will probably turn out to be greater than you think. Let the jib backwind just a little before you release it to help push the bow around. If the air is really light, sit on the leeward side to keep the sails hanging to leeward, don't try to point too high, and don't sheet in too tightly--she'll move better that way.

Then you can ease the sheets and head back downwind. In very light air, try a jibe (sheeting in first to control the movement of the boom, and then letting out on the other side). In over 10 knots, I'd avoid jibing for now, and instead, going downwind, to get the wind on the other side, turn back toward the wind and tack through 270 degrees. You'll find that dead-downwind is slower than angles "off the wind," and seems even more so because you're moving with the air and waves... (It can feel a little stuffy!) For safety as well as speed, I recommend not sailing directly downwind--keep the wind on your quarter (an angle to the transom) and the boom on the opposite side.

One final pointer (from me): If you get caught "in irons" (head to wind, stopped, and not able to complete a tack), push the boom over to the opposite side of where you want it to end up (to windward) and hold it, push the tiller the opposite way, and the boat will back around till it's pointing where you want. Then release the boom, center the tiller, and she'll sail away on the new tack.

Otherwise, just do it!

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2008 : 22:49:38

Ed, if you want some help feeling her out let me know. I will be tied up Thurs. and Fri., but could make myself available Sat. Launch me and EM and let me know. I am just eight miles down the road. Have vest and tether will travel.

Edited by - frog0911 on 04/23/2008 22:51:41

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 06:59:48

Where on the St. johns? I'm in St. Augustine... no car - liveaboard... but I'll school ya... You gotta pick me up. I will want a coldie or two though 'cuz in 6 knots of wind I'm gonna be worried about inhaling bugs! Need something to wash em down with! And forget about the MOB retrieval stuff, just go and have fun for now. Get back in one piece. Have a handheld, pfd's, you'll live. Driving your car is more dangerous, admittedly you can pull over if something goes wrong, but realistically I can crawl faster than your boat in 6 knots.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine FL for flipping ever!!!!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 07:45:36

Ed, out of respect for the sincerity of your question I will give you one heads up. In light air a person has a hard time sensing the wind when sailing off the wind. A person's weight while moving around will be enough to cause a boom to begin to gybe and then the wind will get behind the main and the boom can complete the gybe unexpectedly. At that wind speed no hardware damage will be done but if your wife is standing up the boom will hurt like hell. These are the events that turn wives off from sailing. Be aware moving around the boat in light wind will affect your heel, above 10 knots the effect of walking around is imperceptible.

Now one other piece of advice, Frog is actually a retired military officer of field grade rank and a gentleman, you could not have a better rider. Sten on the other hand is a terrifying Viking who just may leave your world and your perception of reality forever changed, choose wisely.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 08:41:08

There are three basic courses that a sailboat can sail, and two basic maneuvers. A sailboat can beat to windward, reach, and run downwind, and it can tack and gybe. If you learn to do those things well, you'll generally be able to get where you want to go in a sailboat. After that, it's a matter of learning how to adjust to stronger winds, and varying conditions.

Remember, as a general principle, that, when beating to windward, the sails must be trimmed in more. The mainsail should be approximately trimmed close to the centerline of the boat. The jib should be trimmed to within an inch of the spreader, if it's a 110% jib, or to within about 6-8" of the tips of the spreaders, if it's a 150% genoa. If you don't trim the sails in approximately that far, then the boat won't sail to windward. If the boat is heeling too much when you trim them in that far, then you need to reduce your sail area. When sailing downwind, let both sails out, so that they are facing the wind, and collecting it, as if the sails were big bags.

If you don't have an instructor along, and are going to be entirely self-taught, it's good to learn in light to moderate winds, because things don't happen so fast, and it's easier to avoid getting hurt or breaking the boat. The most important thing to remember is, don't let your head get into the swing plane of the boom. I'd suggest you practice sailing all three courses, and then sail windward/leeward courses. Start by sailing to windward, and then turn around and sail downwind. Try sailing dead downwind, and then try sailing on broad reaches downwind. Notice the differences in the way the boat behaves.

The best solution, however, is to have an experienced sailor to teach you. You can learn a lot in a short time that would take a long time for you to learn by trial and error.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/24/2008 08:51:02

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 08:51:30

Quote: "Sten on the other hand is a terrifying Viking who just may leave your world and your perception of reality forever changed, choose wisely."

Was it something I said? OH, I know - it's my PFG - Personal Flotation Girl! Pull the rip cord and out pops an "Inflate-a-Mate" to hold onto while awaiting help... Hmmm.. tough call - Viking or Gentleman....

OK, I'll volunteer my wife - Kansas girl, she'll have you going 2.7 knots in six knots, no problem... There might be a bed sheet or two involved. Renzo, don't get any ideas!

sten

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 09:19:02

Hi Ed,
One of your worst enemies can be current. On the Intercoastal it can be brutal and I'm sure the St. Johns in Jax is the same way. Before you even raise a sail make sure you are proficient with the outboard. In open areas use only the tiller to steer, in tight areas (moving VERY slowly) use the tiller and the outboard. I do this especially when backing in tight areas. But when there's a 5 knot current and stuff hits the fan IMHO you want to be practiced at maneuvering under power.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 09:58:09

On our first sail, we had the good fortune to have a retired Navy gentleman volunteer to ride along - he was very patient with us.
I knew how to sail, but not that particular boat, and the Admiral was a newbie.
So the big thing was confidence and some very basic knowledge.

My suggestion: Accept both offers of these gentlemen to sail with you, on different days.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 14:30:39

Heck, RedViking sounds like a blast. You headed up to Charleston anytime soon??? I am bummed as my brother used to live in St Augustine and if he still did, I would have an excuse to bring the boat down and visit.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2008 : 20:12:39

I'm impressed with all the advice! I fully intend to seek out Sten and Frog, but things are looking a little iffy for this weekend. I still have too much to do to put the boat in the water and I'm running out of evenings. For what it's worth, I have been paying attention. I have the handheld, a Garmin chartplotter, two auto-inflate PFDs and tethers and a towing policy, so I can't go too wrong.
Thanks,
Ed

Edited by - on

SteveRoberts
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 16:31:53

Just to throw my two cents in on top of the plentiful good advice here, if you haven't done so already go buy a beginner's book on sailing. Even if you just skim through it you'll get a better idea on what to expect and a picture in your mind of what you're *trying* to do. Practice knots: square, bowline, half-hitch.

Finally, in anything under 10 kts. you aren't going to get into too much trouble (as long as your outboard works reliably) so relax and have fun.

Someday I'll tell the story of our first sail on Huckleberry, our Valiant 32, in about 18 knots wind and a 3-ft. chop on SF Bay. woo.

Edited by - on

SteveRoberts
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 16:35:47

Oh, also practice tying off a line to a cleat. Get to where you can do it correctly without thinking. Make sure you know what "correctly" is (see the book suggestion above). I'd estimate that 75%+ of lines tied to cleats I see in the marina are wrong.

With power boaters that number approaches 100% (I can say that because my dad and my father-in-law both were stinkpotters). =)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 17:25:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SteveRoberts
 ...I'd estimate that 75%+ of lines tied to cleats I see in the marina are wrong. With power boaters that number approaches 100%...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">HEY, HEY!! Some of us crossed over to the Dark Side.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 18:29:14

I dunno Dave, since you crossed over we're going to have to see proof.
Pictures required.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 18:38:48

Having been a power boater all my life (still am, sorry folks), when I bought my sailboat, boating wasn't the scary part. Knowing what to do in a particular situation was my concern. I purchased two DVDs, one is called Learn to Sail by Steve Colgate, the other was called Sailing with Confidence by Bud Foulke. Both filmed in the eighties, but still relevant. They helped quite a lot. But, you won't feel really confident until you are out there on your own and make the decisions for yourself. After four years of sailing, I still come in sometimes and say to myself, I should have done this or I should have done that. The learning never stops. Go out and do it, when you feel overwhelmed, drop the sails, motor around for awhile and think about it. It will come to you. It will get easier and easier. Good Luck !
Also, when I added a furler things got a lot easier!!!
Oh, and SteveRoberts when I was just a powerboater I knew how to tie the boat up to a cleat, I just didn't know how to tie knots until I was a sailboater.

Edited by - on

SteveRoberts
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 18:48:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The learning never stops.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Boy have you got that right. That's one of the things that makes sailing fun.

And hoo-boy, I guess I put my foot in it by giving the powerboaters guff. No offense intended...well, at least not much. =)

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 19:45:05

No offense taken. The truth is, most powerboaters only know how to push the throtle forward. And thats not enough. Did I spell throtle correctly

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 10:51:20

Well, we $+!nkp*++ers have troble with speling, to.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 13:16:03

AHHH. The memories. I believe it was called "Royce's illustrated guide to sailing" or maybe "encyclopedia of sailing" anyway, it was Royce's and was my pillowbook for the first couple of years. I'll bet it's still around here somewhere.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 10:10:44

Well, the planets aligned and we got to put the boat in the water. Winds were forecast to be 6 kts on Saturday and 8 kts Sunday. We motored into the middle of the St Johns river and raised the main. We tried to hit all points of sail except a run and we did some tacks and some jibes (I hope I’m using the correct words) just to get comfortable maneuvering the boat and we were steady making 3 knots. The whole time, the admiral is wanting the head sail raised but I’m still a bit uneasy. It just seemed like an awful lot of wind for 6 kts.. When a couple other sailboats cruised past us, she convinced me that I was being a wimp and I put up what I believe is a 110 jib. We tacked a couple times and it seemed like everything was going well. The wife was on the tiller and was having a blast. We heeled over a bit, but not to an uncomfortable degree.

We were now making 5 kts steady on a beam reach when we suddenly heeled over to the point where the port rail was in the water and the wife screamed like a little girl and told me to take over. Being new at this and being in what, at the time, I considered some peril, I turned into the wind and we were instantly fine. It was then possible to turn back to port slightly (close hauled?) and keep some forward movement without heeling but the wind was not backing off. We went like this for perhaps 45 minutes, afraid to change anything until I decided to take down the headsail. I crawled out on the deck while my wife kept us pointed into the wind (with the help of the motor) and pulled down the sail and drug it back to the cabin. We then turned off the wind a bit and proceeded to sail for another 30 minutes or so before calling it a day.

All along, it had been my plan to sail in manageable wind for our level of skill but when we got back to the dock, we found that the 6kts wind that was forecast turned into 13kts in the early afternoon and then to 18kts with gusts to 21kts later. Needless to say, it was quite an experience for a novice and the good news is that my wife completely enjoyed it.

Now for the questions and observations… My first mistake was in not tuning the handheld to one of the weather channels to get current wind conditions. As I said earlier, I’m a complete novice and there is no way I would ever have gone out in those kinds of winds. Then when we were hit with stronger than expected wind, I didn’t realize that I should have been reefed and probably put up the storm jib. I was still thinking we were sailing in quite manageable conditions. One of the things I can’t get my head around is that I should have hardened the sails. On a beam reach, wouldn’t that just make the boat heel over even more? Bottom line, we (she) had the boat to 6Kts on the first real sail, verified on the GPS and we loved it. We scared ourselves some but we went back out Sunday morning but returned before the ‘Lake wind advisory’ started at noon.

What should I have done? What should I have not done? What should I have done differently? Please don’t mince words, I can take it!

Thanks,
Ed

His Horse
1979 SR/SK

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 11:07:10

I think you did what you should have done, sort of. Yeah, you should have checked the weather. That should be a normal part of the pre-departure checklist. You might want to invest in a handheld windspeed indicator.

BUT, if you had done those things, you might not have gotten the most important lesson: You can control your boat in conditions you weren't expecting. Congratulations!

I'm not clear when you say "Harden the sails", do you mean bring the main closer to midline of the boat or tighten the outhaul and jib sheet? On a beam reach, the sails should not be at the midline. You're right, that will just produce more heel and less forward motion. On a beam reach, the sail should be roughly 45degrees off the midline of the boat. As you turn closer to the wind the boom should come more to the midline. The opposite is true as you fall off the wind.

Check out this website: http://www.sailingusa.info/sail_trim.htm

Then follow their link to the Physics of Sailing website they reference.

Edited by - on

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