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First time out in any wind, what should I attempt?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 11:12:35

Well done!
Excellent that the Admiral enjoyed it. My Admiral gained a whole lot of confidence in heeling when she learned what she could do about it....namely the Mainsheet. She knows that if the boat is heeling too much, let out some of the main sheet and the heeling will lessen.

I recommend putting a reef in the main sail before you leave the dock. This was our tactic when we started to learn our boat. I have rarely used the storm jib, it is ineffective until you get into 20+ knots.
When you leave the dock with the main reefed, you can easily take out the reef if winds are too light. With a reef in, you will heel less and be more in control if the wind pipes up. Remember that your head sail (jib or genoa) is whet really drives your boat, and that the main sail is more of a control feature.
I would suggest that you make changes while under sail to see what the effect is. If you make a change on one sail, you generally have to make a change on the other.
Keep at it, sounds like you are well on your way to enjoying every minute of your further adventures

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 12:31:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 One of the things I can’t get my head around is that I should have hardened the sails. On a beam reach, wouldn’t that just make the boat heel over even more?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As John said, yes. You may have misinterpreted discussions about the advantage of flattening sails in higher winds--not "hardening" (sheeting in). A sail can be flattened with any combination of several tools: boom vang, outhaul, downhaul, cunningham, and (necessary in some cases) a new sail. The jib can be flattened by moving the sheet cars aft on their tracks to pull the sail back more than down.

Flattening reduces the tendency of the sail to "capture" the wind, push the boat sideways, and heel it over. The flattened sail can be sheeted at any angle--the tell-tales tell the tale--they should be flowing back, not up for forward. In very light breezes (like the six knots you were expecting) the sail can be "unflattened", you shouldn't try to point as close to the wind, and you should sheet out a little more. And it's often a good idea to sit on the lee side to help keep the sails in the desired position and shape when the air is not doing a very good job of that. All of that said, I agree that at this stage, reefing is your best way to make sailing in stronger breezes more comfortable.

Ed, I don't remember whether you have a C-25 or C-250... (How about describing your boat in a "signature" in your profile?) The C-25 is definitely headsail driven, and the C-250, with its mast further forward and a smaller headsail, might be more mainsail driven. On the C-25, in heavy, gusty winds, you can sail very comfortably and with pretty good performance with the jib/genoa only. Relatively speaking, it's a pig on main alone. The C-250 might be the opposite--I have no experience on it.

Congratulations on your progress!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/22/2008 12:33:07

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 13:42:54

Hi Ed,

I just wanted to throw out some basic sailing information. I thought a bit about your dilemma, then it occurred to me that there was a very specific point in my life when I went from just being able to manage a sailboat, to be very good at it. That change was due to learning how the wind works, how sails work and how to properly trim them, regardless of the wind speed. At that point a man I met, pointed me in the right direction. He is a very good friend of mine now. I'm not going to try to give a lesson here; like my friend, I'm going to point you in the right direction to get the information you need to become a really good sailor.

It sounds like you understand points of sail, so I won't address that. I'll go directly to understanding what a flying sail looks like and how to make it happen. The most important thing to understand about this is that the air passing over your sails is inconsistant front to rear and also top to bottom. The wind passing over your mainsail has been turned by the jib and is at a different angle. The wind nearest the water has also been turned and is moving a bit more slowly, due to the friction of passing over the water. Here are some things you need to know to properly deal with these inconsistencies, to make your boat sail really well and to be safe:

How to identify the location of the draft of a sail.
How to use a downhaul to move the draft forward or aft.
How to use a boom vang to twist off your mainsail in heavy air, or to tighten up the leech in light air.
How to use an outhaul to flatten the lower part of your mainsail in heavy air or deepen it in light air.
How to use a leechline to close or open the leech of a sail.
How to use a traveler to change the attack of your mainsail without changing the sail shape.
How to use jib sheet angle to twist off your jib in heavy air, or to close off the top in light air.
How to read tell tales and recognize a sail that is flying as well as a sail that is stalled, or partially stalled.

In regards to the sail controls named above, if there are any of these you don't have, get them, no sailboat in heavy air can sail completely in control at all times without them.

What you are shooting for in all of these tweaks is to achieve a couple of things depending on the wind strength. In light air you want to have your sails deeper and powered-up as much as possible and never stall either of them. In heavy air, you want to keep your draft forward where it belongs, keep the sail more flat and at the same time, depower the top so that the driving force is down low. This keeps your boat more level and moving faster, which provides more lift and stability from the keel. A fast-moving boat, under control in heavy air is an absolute joy and something worth striving for. Not to be overlooked is being able to keep a boat moving well in light air.

In regards to the comments I made above about the differences in airflow front to aft and top to bottom, it will help to read up on slot effect and laminar airflow. Understanding these two concepts will give you the basic reasoning behind sail trim.

Sailing is a lot of fun and it's much more fun when you understand how it works and know how to squeeze the best performance out of your boat. It's also a lot of fun to be in control and to not be afraid you are going to experience a broach or something else dangerous.

Best of luck to you!
Clifford

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 22:15:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 I just wanted to throw out some basic sailing information.... Sailing is a lot of fun and it's much more fun when you understand how it works and know how to squeeze the best performance out of your boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ed... What Clifford enumerated goes a bit beyond "basic"... I'll call it "Type A" sailing. Many sailors spend years on the water without worrying about a lot of that. Racers learn those things over years of experience. Pick a nice day and go sailing--the C-25 will take care of you and you'll learn every time out. In heavy air, reduce sail. The fine points make good winter reading and (maybe) interesting experiments as you progress.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 07:27:34

Congratulations, Ed. Sounds like it was a great day for sailing and you handled the boat well under the circumstances. The 110 jib will easily handle the winds you described. Most likely it was the 18-21 gusts and full main that made you heel over so much.
First, always check the current weather report. Second, reefing the main at the dock is easier than out on the water. Remember that this is a masthead rigged boat and, therefore, derives most of its power from the headsail, not the main, so reefing it won't slow you down much. Then, if the wind turns out to be light, it's easy to shake out the reef on the water. Easier than taking in a reef in higher wind!
It's not necessary to drag the headsail back to the cabin. After dropping the sail, take the loose jib sheet and wrap it around the sail about 3-4 ft back from the bow and tie it off with a knot that can be released easily. Also, I keep a bungee stretched across the base of the bow pulpit that can be wrapped around the jib quickly. That will hold the jib in place.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 08:06:35

...then plead to Santa for a roller furler for Christmas--it changes everything! (Pull one string and there's your genny--pull another string and it's gone, or if you like, smaller.)

Although, if you feel the urge building to become a hard-core racer, then fuggetaboutit.

Edited by - on

stampeder
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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 16:20:07

FWIW - in all these kinds of discussions where opinions on how to sail are foisted upon one and other, it is a good idea to know what kind of learner you are.
I, for example need to learn hands-on. When I read about a new sailing skill virtually nothing sinks in. But when I go out there and do it, fiddle around, see what the various lines and controls do when tightened or loosened then read about it afterwards, I put a name to what it is that I learned, so that later - here on the forum I can generate good responses by putting the proper terms to what I experienced.
The C25 is an excellent boat to learn on because it is forgiving when sailed by a Newbie. I think you are spot-on when you have decided to sail in conditions you feel comfortable in.
Now that I've sailed my boat for four seasons, I don't think I'm an expert, but I do think I am highly skilled - I owe it to buying the right boat for me. And by the way, I think hank-on sails are an excellent starting place for a new sailor. I won't buy a roller furler until I have to walk at least 30' to the bow.

Edited by - on

Stardog
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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2008 : 04:31:57

I thought about it for several days, I wanted to make sure I wasn't being pompous or pedantic and I believe I'm being forthright when I say the advice about learning how your boat works and how the wind works is sound. Either you know how to sail or your don't. Racing boats does not come into it and the list of basics really is that; it's a list of things that you need to have under your belt to be able to sail properly and sail safely. There is a lot of good advice in this thread and it's true that people all learn in different ways, but you can either spend years learning how to sail by "feel", or you can study and shorten your learning time on the basics to a single season.

I was out on the lake Saturday with my wife and a friend and while I beat to weather on a single tack for miles, I watched one boat tack repeatedly, while over and over he got pushed back and stalled by the chop every time he had to tack, then a puff would hit and he would almost be knocked down. I watched this poor guy go through this over and over for more than an hour. I used to sail like that; I was that person for years and I scared myself and my friends and dumped people in the water at least once, then had to be towed in from a storm another time. There were numerous other incidents also, because I liked to sail a lot and do it poorly. You can avoid all of that by learning what you're doing and you'll be safe and instill confidence in your passengers no matter what the conditions.

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