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swing keel questions

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Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/04/2008 : 18:08:00

I know this is probably an old subject, but after scanning numerous forum topics I figure I'll just ask. I have an 81 swing keel but plan to keep it in the water. I have read recommendations to both keep the keel up while in the slip and to leave it down. One said to keep as little cable in the water as possible and the other said the keel will move with the boat as one with less rocking if you leave it down. What's the right answer? I'm in saltwater and plan to pull it out and inspect annually. The PO said it doesn't clunk around and it appears some spacers have been added at the pivot end, so I'm hoping he's right. ALSO I was wondering.. when you are under sail witht the keel all the way down, do you drop till the cable is slack or do you try to leave some tension on the cable?

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 19:26:25

good questions, unfortunatley I dont know the answers, I have a 78 swing, and I to would love to know what the differenences are with sailng with the swing up , or down, etc, and what behavior I should expect

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 19:37:44

Don't raise/unfurl the sails until you've lowered the keel, and don't raise the keel until you've brought in the sails. In terms of being docked, it seem to be CW that as long as it doesn't knock around, raise the keel. Also generally accepted is to replace the lift cable every two years (especially in salt water) as well as inspecting the ball and pin.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 20:28:49

The boat rocks less with it down which makes moving around in and on the boat nicer.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 20:56:19

I just wrote a nice response, but I got some weird "Microsoft Jet error" when I submitted, so here it goes again without the prose and poetry:
1. Manual says keel up on mooring/in slip for extended periods - Frank is right and is what we do when aboard.
2. I inspect thoroughly every year, I don't necessarily replace every 2 - I only berth in salt water about 2 months. If I were permanently in salt, I would probably rethink the 2 year issue.
3. Keel down all the way and crank back to tension the cable.
4. Not much to be gained leaving the keel up when sailing downwind, less stable and more leeway upwind. Center of mass with keel up is a couple of inches higher than a wing, so its not that unstable, but a lot less lift. Safe to try for yourself in 5 - 10 kts. and calm seas

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 07:45:53

Remember this: if your cable snaps while the keel is up, the force of the keel falling down will probably tear the bottom out of your boat. I always leave mine down unless I have a good reason to have it up e.g. it is stuck in the bottom.

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 07:51:48

The reason there is debate about this subject is this:
If you leave the keel up, and god forbid, your cable should break or the fitting part, your keel will free fall. Damage to the hull will result and your boat will be on the bottom when you return. If you leave it down, you expose more of the system to the salt. Pick your poison. I am in salt, I leave the keel up when docked, but if it falls, it will hit the bottom before extending all the way.

I have the keel down on all parts of sail. The extra milli-knot by cranking it up is not worth it to me. I also leave slack in the cable so it does not hum.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 08:41:14

I pull my keel all the way up for my shallow slip. When lowering the keel, I let the cable go slack and then crank about 1/3 a turn up just to put a slight amount of tension on the cable. This will then distribute the shock between the cable and the fiberglass trunk if I were to hit a submerged object and have the keel fall back down.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 10:58:09

I keep my keel down whenever possible.
I don't like the cable hum, so my cable is slacked off a bit.

The first season I had my boat, I did both, I moored it for weeks at a time with the keel up, and then for weeks with the keel down. A year later when I hauled it and inspected all parts, I could not find any sign of wear or degradation.
Mostly now, I am on a lake and always leave the keel down.
When working properly...IMHO, the swing keel is the best version of these boats, to keep it so, inspect often and do the little repairs immediately. Tighten keel hinge bolts, inspect cable and fittings etc.
Keel hinge shims are a must - IMHO, they are the little item that keeps the swing keel model viable over the long term.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 16:32:45

That image of the cable parting and the keel free-falling,
ripping out the hull is too much for me to bear, I think if
I have plenty of depth I'll leave it down.
I'm not sure the corrosion factor would be that much better
having the cable parts dipped in and out of salt water all year as opposed to leaving in the water?? don't know really. Then again if it corrodes a lot more in the water and then at the end of the year I go to pull it out on the trailer, crank up the keel, cable fitting breaks, keel free-falls.......

......maybe I'm stressing this too much

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 17:13:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">......maybe I'm stressing this too much<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are. I think the worst "could" happen, but only to well neglected boats. If you inspect the gear regularly and replace parts every couple of years you will not have a problem.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 17:14:02

I'm in fresh water and a deep slip, and keep the keel all the way down all the time. I also do not like the idea of the cable breaking while it is up and probably sinking the boat. I keep a little bit of tension on the cable to let the hum work as a speedometer, hum pitch goes up as we go faster. There ought to be an inexpensive way to translate the hum frequency to a digital speed readout. That could eliminate the paddle wheel transducer and a hole in the boat!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 17:47:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">......maybe I'm stressing this too much<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are. I think the worst "could" happen, but only to well neglected boats...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You never know when you will get a bad swage.

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 17:53:12

If you get a bad swage, you will have failure whether you leave the keel up or down. Let's hope that doesn't happen too often.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 18:38:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You never know when you will get a bad swage.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Has this happened?

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 19:04:36

I think that a few years ago, CD was manufacturing their own cables and some people had problems with those. I am not sure if that is exactly true, but that is what I remember. I order my cables from Catalina Yachts.

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 19:32:52

Awww DavyJ, I hope CD cables are good, I just received my first new cable from them a week ago. My old cable has a few broken strands.

Regarding the issue of a keel's position, in most cases, it much better to work with gravity rather than against. With that said, a keel in a down position has less stored energy than in the up position.

Better to find seek the place of least resistance: leaving the keel down is preferable in my mind.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:35:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 1. Manual says keel up on mooring/in slip for extended periods - Frank is right and is what we do when aboard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I recall the manual also says the swinger should not be moored in salt water for extended periods, so I'm not sure item 1. applies to those who do. Salt will eventually corrode that cable and hardware whether up or down. The more important issue is having a zinc annode on the keel to "take the bullet" for the cable and hardware, and to check and replace the cable and attachment hardware every couple of years (in salt water). That free-fall is a real issue--I believe Val "On the Hard Dagnabit" had it happen twice before he converted to a wing.

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:38:53

Deric, don't worry, like I said a few years ago. They are probably suppling you with original Catalina parts now. I also think the reason Catalina suggests that you leave the keel up is that SS parts fair better out of the water. Just my best guess though.

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 19:04:22

isnt the cable made of stainless steel, , I checked mine with a magnet and I believe it to be stainless, why would salt water make a difference with stainless steel,
from what I understand it does not rust, at least a good quality stainless wont,
has anybody had experience with a stainless cable failing from rust????

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 19:06:20

you guys are getting me paranoid, I have had my keel in the up postion on my trailer all winter, just by looking at the stainless cable spooled up on the winch I dont see any issues, I didnt inspect the pivot point as I could not the way I am storing the boat this year,
I did lower and raise it last year in the Hudson river which is brackish water, and the cable looks just fine

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 19:39:36

DavyJ,

Thanks, yes, I have heard that the cable may last longer when the keel is in the up position. My decision to leave the keel down is a personal decision. I think the cost of replacing the cable as needed is good insurance for proper maintenance; it is to be expected when owning a swing keel boat.

ah,, not only do I have to replace the cable this month, I still have to tend to the rust, and painting of the keel.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 22:33:21

If you don't know the age of your keel cable or attendant parts, you should replace them. It will take 15-30 minutes while the boat is on the trailer. Cost is about $40.
I'm not paranoid about my swing keel system because I maintain it and know it is in perfect condition.
Before I launch I check the bolts and fittings. Every time I use the winch I give it my full attention.
I buy my parts from CD.
For my sailing venue and my sailing style, the swing keel is the right boat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 23:12:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 ...why would salt water make a difference with stainless steel,
from what I understand it does not rust...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Stainless doesn't "rust" per se, but it does corrode, especially in an environment where it doesn't get much oxygen. Typically, it's what is called "crevice corrosion", which forms cracks in the metal, and the residue is generally white--not brown. And salt promotes it. That's why standing rigging as well as keel cables should be replaced periodically (maybe 10-15 years for rigging, which tends to corrode down inside the "swages" that attach it to the hardware on both ends).
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have had my keel in the up postion on my trailer all winter<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The recommendation as I understand it is, after the boat is on the trailer, lower the keel onto a channel on the trailer that is there to support its weight, so when the trailer is moving, the keel is not bouncing against the cable, its hardware, and the winch.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/06/2008 23:17:48

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 10:18:36

Having the keel lowered while on the trailer is safer because the center of gravity is closer to the ground.

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 16:16:26

does anyone have a picture they can post of what the cable attachment point looks like on the swing keel, ?

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