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My 1st Trip - What went wrong

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knightwind
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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/04/2008 : 19:25:30

Beautiful sunny day with just right wind.
But my quaint little motor wouldn't start.
You guys don't know how much that hurt...;o(
What can happen to a motor that starts on the first pull after being driven in a trunk...in two days! It rained. Its a pull start. Its getting gas...spark plugs look good...don't know how to check spark...and I ahave a feeling that's it...tried starter spray...no smoke... nothing but a sore arm...

I also put my mainsail in the boom...seems a foot too short.

And what do I do with my topping lift? seems in the way.

And there's gotta be a way I'm missing to clip a rope to the corner of the mainsail to pull it down the boom...isn't there?

And how do you run with the pop-up up...i.e. what do you attach the boom vang to ?

So here I sit sulking quite miserably.
Please tell me how to start my motor somebody...anybody...

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 19:55:01

Sorry to hear of your difficulties! I am sure you'll have everything figured out in no time.

If it is of help to you, I will be rigging & Launching on th e15th or 16th depending on weather. If you are up for the drive on the edge of the long weekend, you would be welcome to come up and rig the boat with us to get a sense of what goes where. I am sure there is someone closer to you that you could borrow information from, but if nothing else, well, the offer is there. This will be our first launch as well, but we will have some other Catalina owners lending a hand.

Here is the map: [url="http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=L0E+1R0&daddr=Turkey+Point,+ON,+Canada&sll=42.68459,-80.33105&sspn=0.045364,0.079651&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=8"]Turkey Point to Georgina[/url]

The part to pull the mainsail to the end of the boom is called an outhaul. ( http://www.answers.com/topic/outhaul ) This guy's blog (link below) has a pic with the end of the boom in the corner. Is that how yours looks?

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2324329570036770018DnFntB

The pop-top should be down while the boat is moving. I know its no fun to drive a convertible with the roof on, but those are just the rules.

send me an email if you want to come up, and I'll give you directions to the boat. (That map was to my postal code, which is HUGE!)

Edited by - Prospector on 05/04/2008 20:15:34

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 20:32:47

Peter,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Our first launch didn't go so well either, so don't feel too bad.

As far as your outboard, some types are very picky about how they're stored. I know the manual for my new engine says that it should always be stored in an upright position, but if you have to lay it down (as in a trunk), it must sit on the side that the tiller is on. Something to do with the valves I think, other more engine savvy people will weigh in on this. Also, it's possible that there was still water in the engine when you laid it down, which could cause the water to run up into the block through those same valves, which can cause all kinds of havoc. I've read that you should allow an engine that's been in the water to drain for several hours before laying it down.

If you think it's a fuel problem, the first thing to check is to see if it's actually getting fuel. Is the bulb hard when you squeeze it? The other day just before I sold my old Johnson, I was trying to start it up, and pulled & pulled & pulled on the starter, nothing. Turned out I had the fuel hose connected up backwards. Presuming this is OK, you can poke at the ball in the end of the fuel line with a screw driver to see if you have flow, do this with the fuel line pointed into a can or something, don't look at it unless you want a squirt of gas in your eye. Presuming this is OK, it's unlikely that you have a fuel problem presuming the engine was running just a couple of days before. Also make sure the vent screw is opened on your fuel tank (generally a little black thumb screw on the top of the filler cap). If this isn't open, the engine will start & run for a while, then just die (don't ask me how I know this, suffice to say I scared my little sister in the process).

To check for spark on an outboard, if you're alone, and it's a pull start, it could be a bit of a trick. Here's what you need to do, disconnect one plug wire, and wedge a flat tip screw driver into the end of the wire. Then while turning over the engine, hold the screwdriver's tip (with the wire on it) very close to the end of the spark plug. Unless you want to be part of the test, make sure to hold the screwdriver by it's handle, otherwise you'll be getting the shock too. You'll see a faint spark by daylight, and this is much easier to see at night, but if you see a spark jump the gap, ignition (probably) isn't your problem.

I'm pretty much at the end of my lore for getting a pull start going, at least with the problems you describe.

Take a look in the "Manuals & brochures" links in the left side of the forum page for how your outhaul should be rigged. That'll give you a much better idea of how your sails should be bent on properly.

The topping lift is generally connected to the aft end of the boom to support it while you're getting your main up. There's usually a block on the end of the topping lift, and a line from the boom runs up to it and back down to a cleat or something (I don't have a C-25, so not sure exactly how they're set up). After the sail is raised, you loosen the topping lift so the sail can support the boom instead.

I'd take Prospector up on his offer if it's not overly far to drive. Having a bunch of other Catalina folks around to ask questions of directly could be very useful.

Good luck & let us know how it goes next time around. Keep your chin up, it'll only get better.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 20:56:04

Peter,

On that photo of the outhaul there is, I think, a 3:1 block and tackle to give a mechanical advantage when adjusting the foot of the sail - tighter for a flat sail when beating to windward and looser for a curve in the [loose-footed] sail when reaching and running. Assuming you have a loose-footed main.

If you choose not to adjust the outhaul, you can attach a fixed line to the clew of the mains'l as in the diagram shown on page 19 in the [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/C25Partsmanual.pdf"]C-25 Parts List[/url].

In light winds, I sometimes sail with the pop top up, but in that case I cannot easily climb to the foredeck if my bimini is up, cannot easily get to the mast, and prefer not to heel significantly. I remain aware of this precarious situation and I'm ready to lower the pop top immediately under sail if anything happens that requires one of those actions. It would be safer for you to keep the pop top down while sailing until you get a good feel for how you handle the running rigging in various wind and wave conditions.

Sorry, no idea about your old Merc'.

Keep on truckin' - You'll get it all figured out.

Edited by - JohnP on 05/04/2008 20:58:21

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 21:57:05

The mainsail should be about 1 foot shorter than the boom, the rest of the area is used for the outhaul, so that is normal.

One part of your topping lift must connect to the end of the boom run up through the block, run back down to the boom, run through a block, and then tie off on a cleat somewhere along the boom.

For your motor, pull the plugs and check the gap. Clean the tips. If they are wet with gas, the motor is flooded. Pull the starter rope with the plugs out, the gas tank turned off, and the throttle wide open a whole bunch of times.

Ny guess is that it is flooded or the plugs are fouled.

Keep in mind an electric start XXL shaft 4 stroke Tohatsu 9.8 is about $US 1875 delivered to your door from online outboards - no tax, no shipping.

Never run with the poptop up.

Try to find some local help or I'd jump at the offer to drive down and go sailing on another C25.

Edited by - on

danandlu
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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 22:05:02

Peter,

I didn't see anyone mention this - if your motor has a safety lanyard check and see that it is properly in its place. Perhaps it got yanked somehow during transport.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2008 : 22:11:54

...and never sail (or motor) with the pop-top up!

Seriously, it's for being in the slip or on the hook--it's too heavy to risk a free-fall.

The mainsail is shorter than the boom because, with end-boom sheeting, the longer boom makes the sheeting angle better. That's the way it is.

Check for spark as suggested above, and consider, if you don't see any, new spark wires. In older engines, as the insulators become porous, dampness can cause the electric pulse to escape through the insulator to the engine block before it gets to the plug.

Take a deep breath--all is going to be wonderful!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 05:20:46

David mentioned about when the outboard is stored on it;s side, there is usually a preferred side, the side with the flats on it. That is because if it is stored on the other side, there is a chance that oil will get into the cylinders. if that is what happened, not sure what you do other than keep pulling the rope start.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 07:06:49

If you have laid down a 4-stroke engine on the wrong side and oil has gotten in the cylinders, you will need to pull the plugs and clean them, and pull the starter rope a whole bunch of times to get the oil out of the cylinders. Then reinstall the plugs and try to start the engine. Expect it to smoke a bit at first. I've been there, unfortunately!

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 07:23:21

I took a look at the pictures of your motor from the other post. From the look of it, there shoud be a "clip" under the "stop" button. This is the lanyard safety switch that danandlu is talking about. Check into it.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 09:55:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 I took a look at the pictures of your motor from the other post. From the look of it, there shoud be a "clip" under the "stop" button. This is the lanyard safety switch that danandlu is talking about. Check into it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Couldn't find any safety clip on this motor. It ran. Two rainy days later. It didn't.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 10:18:48

I don't think his 1973 has a safety lanyard. (My '95 Merc doesn't have one either). As to oil leaking into cylinders and valves, 2 strokes have neither an oil reservoir or valves.

Check to see if there is some sort of cut out circuit that prevents the outboard from being started if the throttle isn't in the correct starting position or maybe a cut out on the shift assembly to prevent starts in gear.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 10:57:03

That's interesting that your '95 Merc did not have a switch. My old '87 Mercury had what the manual called a "emergency stop switch" located on the starboard side of the motor. A lanyard was to be attached to it. I do not see anything like that from his photos. My new 2008 Tohatsu has the clip under the stop button.

On the '87, during the years of its use, the wires that run to that switch became chafed. This would cause them to short out, causing much frustration because the motor would not start only occasionally. Once I sealed the wires, I had no more problems starting.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 11:18:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 That's interesting that your '95 Merc did not have a switch.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I said my '95 Merc doesn't have a safety lanyard type switch, like the kind with the special clip like you see on PWCs. It does indeed have a run/stop toggle type switch on the starboard side as well as a kill switch on the very end of the tiller.

Speaking of lanyard safety switches, while attending a family function yesterday, I was talking to a friend of the family who owns a boat store and he told a story of a guy who bought a new boat but when he got it to the lake, he couldn't get it started. He brought the boat back and was a bit irate, and when my friend looked at this guy's outboard, he asked, "where's the lanyard" to which this guy's wife replied, "Oh that thing...I put it in the glovebox so we wouldn't lose it".

Redfaced, the guy said sorry, thanks, and left.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/05/2008 11:29:27

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 11:28:40

That's one thing I miss about my Mercury. The tiller mounted forward-N-reverse switch and the kill switch at the end of the tiller. I also miss the ease of the tilt ratchet.

Also, Knightwind, on the '87 Merc, if I did not have the forward-N-reverse in just the right spot in neutral, the motor would not start.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 11:47:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 That's one thing I miss about my Mercury. The tiller mounted forward-N-reverse switch and the kill switch at the end of the tiller. I also miss the ease of the tilt ratchet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I first got the Merc, I didn't know about the throttle/shift thing and as I looked it over, I'm thinking, "great, no shifter...it must be set up for remote steering" only to later discover the forward-N-reverse label on the throttle. When I put that outboard in a test tank the first time and twisted the throttle from forward to reverse, I was downright giddy.

After having an outboard with an integrated throttle/shifter, I don't think I could ever go back to an outboard with a shift lever.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 12:04:02

It was a difficult decision between the Tohatsu and the Mercury. I just couldn't justify the additional expense of a new Mercury, knowing that under the cowl they are the same motor. The gear shift lever has not been as bad as I thought it would be. The real PITA has been the tilt lock.

Edited by - on

redeye
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3478 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 12:58:37

1. remove each spark plug and sandpaper the electrodes, clean with gas and a rag.

2. spray starter fluid into the plug hole on the engine and on the plug and put the plug back in quickly.

3. add 1/3 white gas to your gas tank ( coleman fuel )

4. ( if 1-3 fail ) take the engine to a shop for a tuneup.

2 cycle engines get "wet plugs" easily ( oil on the plugs ) sometimes you hafta pull then and "dry them off" and get some fuel in the cylinder.

regards.ray

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 13:06:00

I had a Merc OB back in the early 80's. Looks very similar to yours.
I hated that SOB. Sometimes it would start with half a pull. Sometimes it would take 20 pulls. I think I spent more money on tune-ups than I did for the original cost of the engine. The good news was, it was the impetus I needed to go into windsurfing - I did not want to deal with motors anymore.

As previously stated, on mine, there was a large slotted set screw just below the fuel indicator, just above the swivel point and between the hand screws clamps, that will adjust how freely the OB swivels. I think it was the only part of mine that worked flawlessly.

Fortunatley, there is a good re-sale market for used OBs.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 09:33:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 1. remove each spark plug and sandpaper the electrodes, clean with gas and a rag.

2. spray starter fluid into the plug hole on the engine and on the plug and put the plug back in quickly.

3. add 1/3 white gas to your gas tank ( coleman fuel )

4. ( if 1-3 fail ) take the engine to a shop for a tuneup.

2 cycle engines get "wet plugs" easily ( oil on the plugs ) sometimes you hafta pull then and "dry them off" and get some fuel in the cylinder.

regards.ray

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So you can just run with the 1/3 Colman fluid/gas mixture?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 13:08:07

I will add up to 1/3 of a tank when it is 1/3 low, of coleman fuel.

I add a little more oil to keep the mixture correct, but not up to 50:1 more like 75:1

I attempt to lean out the oil just a little. Some times I will add just a 1/4 of a tank on a 5 gallon tank without any additional oil.

The coleman fuel ( I've been told by a marine engine repair instructor ) burns slower.

I don't know what it does, but so far on many engines for many years they start easily and run well.

I started on a evinrude 9.9 in 1976. Johnson 9.9 from 1979. Mercury from 1960ish. weed eater from today. Lawnmower from the 70s. Johnson from the 50s.

I got a catalina 84 with the origional sailmaster johnson engine, I think a 6ish HP and it would not crank. Had a tune up and it was still difficult. I added high test at first and it would crank with difficulty, then rev up and down and behave badly.

Added coleman fuel and it starts easily ( some first pulls ) and runs well..

I was ready to get rid of an old engine, but now it runs just like the 4 others I have.

I don't pretend to understand I just have found something that works for me and wonder if any others have any ideas of what is going on..

go figure.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 14:21:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Sorry to hear of your difficulties! I am sure you'll have everything figured out in no time.

If it is of help to you, I will be rigging & Launching on th e15th or 16th depending on weather. If you are up for the drive on the edge of the long weekend, you would be welcome to come up and rig the boat with us to get a sense of what goes where. I am sure there is someone closer to you that you could borrow information from, but if nothing else, well, the offer is there. This will be our first launch as well, but we will have some other Catalina owners lending a hand.

Here is the map: [url="http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=L0E+1R0&daddr=Turkey+Point,+ON,+Canada&sll=42.68459,-80.33105&sspn=0.045364,0.079651&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=8"]Turkey Point to Georgina[/url]

The part to pull the mainsail to the end of the boom is called an outhaul. ( http://www.answers.com/topic/outhaul ) This guy's blog (link below) has a pic with the end of the boom in the corner. Is that how yours looks?

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2324329570036770018DnFntB

The pop-top should be down while the boat is moving. I know its no fun to drive a convertible with the roof on, but those are just the rules.

send me an email if you want to come up, and I'll give you directions to the boat. (That map was to my postal code, which is HUGE!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the invite. A little too far tho.
I really just need some pictures of the boom rigging. i.e. outhauls, reefing lines...and what do you do with your topping lift when your sail's up?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 15:03:53

Although the outhaul in this picture is rather unacceptable, at least you'll get the idea.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/pictures/pc16.gif"]Boom Rigging[/url]

As to the topping lift (and I hope were not talking about the $#%^& pigtail), if you care to, you can set your topping lift to a length that will slacken when the main sail is raised. This way you don't have to do anything with it.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 16:30:09

Re: Topping Lifts - I have run into a load of confusion when referring to these.

There are 2 items commonly referred to as topping lifts, one holds up the back of the boom, the other holds up a spinnaker pole. If you ever go and get bits to put one together be sure that the folks you are buying through are setting you up with the right parts for the job - although they serve essentially the same purpose, just on different spars.

Edited by - on

knightwind
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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2008 : 20:46:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Although the outhaul in this picture is rather unacceptable, at least you'll get the idea.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/pictures/pc16.gif"]Boom Rigging[/url]

As to the topping lift (and I hope were not talking about the $#%^& pigtail), if you care to, you can set your topping lift to a length that will slacken when the main sail is raised. This way you don't have to do anything with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've seen this diagram. Looks like just a small piece of rope. There's a cheap looking jury rig thing along the boom made from a piece of white clothes line with a very light guage "climbing link" and one small pulley that looks like it could be used to pull the sail aalong the boom...didn't work when I tried it...I wonder if the PO used that for an outhaul. I'll send some pictures soon.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 05/08/2008 : 07:38:27

Hey knightwind, what you are looking at could be jiffy reefing. Follow the line and see if it goes up and through a grommet in the sail about a foot or so above the boom. See if it pulls the sail down to th eboom when you give some slack in the halyard.

On Saturday I will be in Brantford, I could try to get there a bit early if you want to meet for a coffee and bring some photos of what you are looking at and maybe I can offer some insights. Its always good to meet other owners and find out the different quirks they are finding.

Edited by - on

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