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killed anotrher deep cycle

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:24:15

Well, I've succeeded in killing another standard deep cycle battery because of inadequate solar charging. Just one more instance of the cheap way out not working. Yep, get the right tool the first time cause when you cut corners or get 3rd or 4th best you just end up having to go back and buy the good one later anyway! So I've always liked OLarryR's solar setup so went to his site, got the link to Northern Arizona Wind & Sun, Inc. and ordered a Kyocera KC40T 43 Watt solar panel and a ProStar 15 solar charge PS-15M controller with digital meter. I'm thinking, "problem solved". Now I also need to replace the battery. I was looking at a "Optima 750 CCA/120 RC Spiral cell/seal AGM Group size 34/78 DT" at my local Sam's Club. They have two types, a 34U for $140 and a 34DU for $163. Are these sufficient? What's the difference between the two? Any help with this that anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated!

Dave Robbins
PO to*Bamboo*
'89 SR/WK #5877
Daytona Bch., FL

http://bambooc25.weebly.com/

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:35:30

I just did a search and found this by Dave Bristle:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">quote:Originally posted by Voyager

Dave is right about the physical strength of the marine batteries - they're tougher...

...which only makes sense (maybe) in a high-speed power boat. A car or truck will physically stress your battery a lot more than your Catalina will. I don't buy the "marine" stuff in this case. I do buy the advantages of AGM batteries--their much greater tolerance of deep discharges without damage, their very low self-discharge rate (just a couple percent in a year), and thus the lack of a requirement to remove, store, and charge them during the off-season. They are also sealed and can be turned upside down or sideways (like gel-cells), but they aren't as sensitive as gels. They seem perfect, to me, for sailboats.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
which answers some questions but still would appreciate any wisdom you all might have to share!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:01:53

Yup, I probably said that (the 2nd paragraph)... I specified AGMs for my new boat, and the builder put in two Group 24 Optimas... They were DOA when we went to launch (the battery switch was off); then after we jump-started the engine, it proceeded to boil off the batteries--sulfer gas spitting out of them. We had sea-trialed with those batteries, and all seemed well then. Nobody knows what went wrong, but when I replaced them with two lead-acid combo 24s from Defender, everything was fine from then till now. (Eastern refunded the full cost of the Optimas.)

Optimas don't say they're "AGM"--they claim their own special technology (signified by the "sixpack" look of the case). They must work OK somewhere, but I'm not in a position to recommend them. Now that my boat appears to be OK, if I were replacing the batteries (which I'm not), I'd get "real" AGMs from West or Defender. That's my anecdote--make of it what you wish.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/09/2008 09:10:29

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:58:20

I'm currently using a pair of Cosco's deep cycle marine batteries
that cost about $ 45/50 four years ago. Sailing daily the Nissan alternator, used a few minutes out to the bay and back, will get me half a season before an overnight charge is needed. This is day sailing only. Electronics, VHF, Stereo, Depth sounder and speedo on all the time with an occasional autohelm use. FWIW.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:02:19

Hi Dave,

What kind of solar setup did you have before? Why were your batteries killed? No charge controller? Good choice on the panel, it's very nice. Last weekend I just installed the same panel and bought from Northern AZ Solar as well; great price. I also like the charge controller Larry has, but I decided to go with a basic one without the meter for closer to $40 but still has all the important features.

Here is my panel installed:

On my site I show the brackets I made from strips of aluminum and more details. With my earlier model C-25, we have the stern rail all the way across the top which makes for an easy out of the way mounting spot. It appears you have a later model like Larry I think? Therefore having the lower cut in the stern rail which will need a different method of mounting. How do you plan to mount yours?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:14:11

We use two Group 24 Seavolt AGMs from West Marine. They are spendy at $200 each but I think you just learned the "buy cheap" lesson. Also, batteries are not a convenience item, the electronics (GPS, VHF, Depth, Autohelm, etc) all depend on a solid supply of 12V power. Batteries are a critical boat system and quality is important in my view.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/09/2008 11:17:06

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:38:49

Thanks guys,
I'll go with a true AGM. And Justin, I'm not sure how I'll mount it but I've got both your and Larry's site for ideas, and yes I've got an 89 without the upper bar across the aft pulpit.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:50:29

This subject seems to come up a lot as it has the most problems and opinions. I've changed and redesigned my system over the years with the Forum ideas and haven't had a problem for many years. The batteries of choice for me are the Costco group 27 with the stock battery switch and an isolator. I never remove the batteries except to replace and do charge at least twice during the winter season. I put a third battery for the microwave which also helps balance the boat. Each battery has a 30 amp breaker at it's positive terminal for safety and a 30 amp socket for charging directly with a battery charger and spare circuit for next item that I just have to have. I do run the positive wires through plastic conduit and use a antioxidant grease at each connection including the battery terminals. I have been looking at OLarryR's solar set up and ready to make the purchase but want a system also for the pickup which are the only batteries that have failed. The long waits in the parking lot of a NW cruise has cost some batteries; learned to never leave the battery switch on ALL. If one battery goes it takes the other.

I do have the Honda with the 12 amp alternator so during the cruise lots of charging time. Everyother season here at the lake not much charging with the engine so solar is needed. Do you have to have a controller?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:59:30

The Kyocera solar panels are well made and ...at this moment I forget the tech details of the solar crystal arrangements but based on the cell type and how they are configured, it dictates how compact the panel is for a given wattage and how efficient the panel is if slightly shaded. Some panels, the less expensive ones, are larger than others for a given wattage/amps and if any part of the panel is even slightly shaded, the panel does not provide any or practially no charge. Other panels like the Kyocera panels are about the most compact size you can get and will put out some charge if slightly shaded.

The Morningstar PS-15M, believe that is same one I have.....it does cost a bunch. It has a digital readout of the volts and amps. It also has separate settings depending on what type of battery(ies). Also, has optional sensing terminals to hook up to the battery for more efficient charging. I did not utilize those sensing terminals.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 13:30:48

Oh, and Justin, I have been using a Sunsei SE-400 Solar Charger 6 Watts, 400mA. I believe the 400ma means it only charges at 400 milliamps and the presets on the stereo would seem to draw more than that. I have the Tohatsu 8 w/alternator too but when I forgot to disconnect the stereo and came back a few weeks later the battery was completely dead. And Larry, it looks like I'm not the only one who's taken notice of your solar handiwork (as well as other good mods and fixes), thanks for the detailed info on the site and sharing your ingenuity.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 13:43:12

Thanks Dave !

Which reminds me I am one of those....that should be beefing up the Technical Tips Section with our projects. I have procrastinated. Perhaps after I accomplish putting one in the technical Tips, I will learn from that experience and then put more. The benefit is that our ideas/projects are preserved.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 21:19:13

The Association magazine needs a Tech Tip Editor. Take the job and make the world a better place.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5381 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 22:39:32

Hi Dave R -
I bought one of the Sensai 6W units last year and it is great to top off the battery, but it provides only a small trickle of power. After a few days of full sunshine, it will restore most of your charge.

I got a pair of 15W panels, that can deliver a total of 2.2A or 2200 mA. It came with a 7A regulator so I can add solar cells.

I calculated a power budget and the two solar cells plus running my engine for about 1/2 hour on each trip up and down the river will more or less keep the battery topped off even if I used my laptop and nav lights for several hours a week.

I can still bring the battery back home to charge it on the plug-in battery charger.

We shall see how the solar scheme works out . . . .

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 10:07:58

Be aware that there are some cruiser reports of AGM batteries not performing well in hot weather.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 10:36:05

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The Association magazine needs a Tech Tip Editor. Take the job and make the world a better place.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am the C250 Tech Editor. I thought my duties were to write articles for the quarterly Mainsheet. Is organizing and posting to the forum Tech Tips also one of my duties or is that for anyone to do as they wish? Thanks for any clarification!

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