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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Dual Forestays - an idea

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:49:15

Crazy idea – I’m not sure this would work, but it might make foresail changes a breeze.

Apart from the expense – why not install 2 forestays, say about 3 inches apart on the foredeck, with the anchor roller between them. You could have 2 hank-on jibs at the ready – one flying and one stowed. When you decide its time to change foresails, have foredeck crew hank on the second jib, then the cockpit could simultaneously downhaul the flying jib, and uphaul the new jib, kinda like when they pop the spin chutes. Your foredeck crew would be there to douse the one jib and stow it.

I envision the process of raising/dousing taking seconds with the right prep (hanking on the new jib) and since the foredeck and cockpit are working together the simultaneous raising/lowering should be fairly painless. Plus, the sail bag from the new flying sail would be right there to pack the doused sail into. Just pack all the sails into oversized bags, and your sail bags would be interchangeable. You would have to label the head plates on your sails to be sure you had the right ones when you went to grab the new sails.

Of course if this was a good idea, it would have already been done, so I must be missing something. I don’t think that offsetting the forestay by 1.5” is enough to compromise the safety of the rig, but that’s just a guess. Besides, the second forestay should distribute the load of the mast so that the load of the mast would be carried by the upwind forestay, and the loading from the sail would be on the downwind forestay.

I haven’t researched this idea, but I should as I can’t get it out of my head (racing season is fast approaching).

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

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Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:57:30

I'm not a racer but I wonder if this kind of mod would be class legal. In terms of safety, it's kinda like a belt and suspenders. Wouldn't you have to worry about sail chafe?

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:09:25

If you were racing with this setup, you would be penalized.

I'm a hank-on racer, I can change a sail very fast, and often do.
I have sails with snap-on hanks.

My first thought would be with how the doused sail would interact with the working sail. A sail bag would be too big, a sail on the deck is unacceptable.

It certainly sounds like a compelling idea though. Maybe if you had a very large anchor locker and you could stuff the doused sail in there while it was still hanked on.
There was a poster not too long ago that posted a picture of a C25 with dual forestays - is this what you were thinking about?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:10:32

Apparently I'm not the only one to come up with the idea.

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=NE-25

A little more research showed something else I hadn't even considered - flying wing on wing, you could fly two headsails for twice the pulling power up front - I suppose you would have to put the bigger head sail on the same side as the main so it wouldn't be blanketed? or maybe sheet the main in tight on centre and just leave it in front wheel drive?

John, as long as the two forestays are perpendicular to the centreline and beside each other, how would chafe be an issue?

Here is how someone did this on a Triton:

Edit to add - since I have 2 full sets of sails, the idea of being able to swap in a heartbeat is very appealing, but the rigging looks like a lot of planning - 2 downhauls, deck routing etc., and I wonder how much use the rig would actually get in tandem.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/09/2008 10:14:17

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:17:42

According to the class rules:

G. STANDING RIGGING
1. The standing rigging must remain unmodified and attached unless otherwise specified herein.

I guess this would modify the standing rigging.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:20:06

Tuff Luff.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:25:07

I agree with Don. I have tuff luff on the forestay and we can do a headsail change without slowing down. Under PHRF it's illegal to fly two headsails at the same time unless in the act of changing jibs.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 10:46:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 John, as long as the two forestays are perpendicular to the centreline and beside each other, how would chafe be an issue?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was thinking aloud but, wouldn't the "un-used" stay be in the lee of the other one depending, of course, on how far out the sail was trimmed. I could see the luff of a hanked-on sail riding against the other stay.

Edit to add: maybe the hanks chafing the leeward stay?

What's a Tuff-Luff.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/09/2008 10:53:54

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:49:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I agree with Don. I have tuff luff on the forestay and we can do a headsail change without slowing down. Under PHRF it's illegal to fly two headsails at the same time unless in the act of changing jibs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ordinarily it's illegal under PHRF to fly two headsails, but it can be allowed if it is specified in the sailing instructions. There are some races on the Chesapeake Bay where twin headsails are permitted. I crewed in one of the big ones a couple of years ago, and we raced downwind all night on twin genoas. The boat had roller furling with two slots.

The wind was coming across the port quarter. The port genoa was poled out (until the pole broke), the starboard genoa was flying free, and the mainsail boom was out to starboard. The windspeed varied between about 18-25 during the night, and the boat was surfing constantly, extremely stable, and making between about 7-9 kts. under that setup. The boat was an old 30' Coronado. After the pole broke, both jibs flew free, and we were able to keep them both flying without the pole.

We started the race with one genoa and the mainsail, and were making 8 1/2 kts. The wind was so strong that we saw spinnakers on several other boats exploding, and we were all a little afraid to put up the second jib. The windspeed dropped slightly, and when our boatspeed dropped to 7 1/2 kts., we raised the second genoa, and that brought the speed back up to between 8 1/2 and 9 kts.

If you need to beat to windward, you can gybe one of the headsails so that it lays flat on top of the other, and trim them both for a beat.

Last year I bought a big whisker pole and a new 140% genoa for my own boat, and I have roller furling with two slots, and am anxious to try sailing it downwind on twin jibs this year.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:22:30

Tuff Luff -

Under most PHRF orgs, as Derek mentioned you are allowed to fly 2 headsails on a boat rated as a sloop ONLY during the time you are making sail changes (spinnaker, drifter, blaster, blooper, other synonyms and reacher are usually not considered headsails). If you can do it with one forestay and hank ons, more power to you. However I think someone would have figured this out already if it were feasible. There is no penalty for Tuff Luff systems other than the cost of getting all new sails for the tuff luff.

A modification such as an additional forestay would carry at a very minimum a 6 second/mile hit, which will seriously undermine your ability to be competitive. And that is a minimum. Most boats would suck it up until the downwind leg and make the sail change while under spinnaker and then hoist the new headsail at the mark. If you do this too often you might consider buying a few beverages for the foredeck. If you are racing JAM....I don't know where you might consider making the change.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 14:31:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 John, as long as the two forestays are perpendicular to the centreline and beside each other, how would chafe be an issue?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If the two stays are on the centerline, you would have to tack/gybe the "outside" sail thorough a 3" slot dragging it across the inner stay.

If they are side-by-side then it depends on sheeting angles and almost guaranteed on one tack or another going downwind.

Edited by - ilnadi on 05/09/2008 14:33:01

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 22:15:15

"There is no penalty for Tuff Luff systems"
A sailmaker once told me that the extra smooth entry using a TuffLuff was worth about 3 secs on your rating.

Edited by - on

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