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First Time Out - Unexpected Adrenlin

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knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/10/2008 : 07:58:09

So I finally got a motor that starts...and runs!
Dying to just take our new baby for a spin we decide to just motor out in the area in front of the marina...you know...just to get a feel for her.
Ha! Soon as we left the calm piers of the marina we get hit broadside with waves that had this 5 ton baby rolling back and forth like an angry child's punching clown. Now we're talking winds around 15 and waves "less than a meter" which amounted to one foot waves on top of 3 foot rolling sets. I look down at the long ash of the forgotten cigarette in the wife's hand and decide we'll turn her around and head back. Going into the waves wasn't so bad except when a few biggies would pull the motor above the surface...and then the white knuckled broadside rolls we're required again to line her up for the marina access channel.
I tell you guys, it scared the shyt out of us! I imagined having sails up and getting hit with those broadside waves and I could see exactly what whoever it was that talked about getting "blown over" was talking about. As we reached the safety of the marina and our pulses finally began to recover, I decide to give her a little gas and see how she responds. Smooth. Water almost came up to the bottom of the motor cowling. Docking was pretty funny too. Let's just say not perfect.
We felt like we survived an Indiana Jones adventure though and the scariness turned to a kind of exhiliration.
Now we're worried that we've gotten ourselves into something we were not looking for. Imagine the first time we get hit with waves over a meter. Guess I really have to consider wind direction with respect to marina entrance before deciding to go out. Maybe this is why you decide to work on the boat instead of going out. Maybe this is why people buy a boat and spend the season drinking in a gazebo in front of it.

Regards,
Peter

ps. In case you can't read between the lines this message is a plea for words of re-assurance, boat handling tips, etc

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 09:27:00

Ok, now that's the first thing you need to know about sailing. It's all about The Wind. The wind is what drives the boat. The more wind you have, the less sail area you need. The more wind you have, the bigger the waves are. The more wind you have, the more difficult it is to handle the boat. Also, wind direction is important. If the wind is blowing from the sea to the shore, the waves will be bigger, because, as the bottom becomes increasingly shallow, it causes the incoming waves to rise up and become steep, eventually breaking. If the wind is blowing from the shore out to sea, or to a big lake or bay, the waves will be smaller, and more gentle. Before you take the boat out, stand there and look at those conditions, and decide whether it would be better for you to wait for more favorable conditions to take the boat out.

While you're in the learning mode, never go out in conditions beyond your skill set, and never, ever take your family out in such conditions. The reasons are because you might scare yourself and your family, and they might not want to go out with you again, and that would be a shame. While you're learning, only take your family out in mild conditions. If you go out in marginal conditions, always rig the boat for those conditions before you go out. If you might need to reef the mainsail, tuck it in at the dock. If you need a smaller jib, put it on at the dock.

Most experienced sailors would probably not feel uncomfortable sailing in the conditions you described, and, after you get more experience, you won't either. But don't start the learning process by sailing in those conditions. Start in more moderate conditions, get comfortable with your ability to control the boat, and then extend yourself into more challenging conditions.

That experience should teach you another fact. Sailboats love to sail. They don't like to motor. They're designed to sail - but are poorly designed to motor. When they motor, they roll in every direction as the waves roll under them. Under sail, the pressure of the wind on the sails, counterbalanced by the weight of the keel, tends to hold the boat at a more stable angle, and most of the boat's movement is fore and aft, rather than rolling from side to side. The side to side rolling motion is what most people find uncomfortable. The motor should only be relied upon to get them in and out of their slip, and the marina. When the waves are choppy, the boat will become much more comfortable if you can get it under sail, and turn off the motor.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 09:28:01

We had a similar experience the first time we got caught in an afternoon thunderstorm, big rollers and rain.

While sailing just the other day, we had a swift seabreeze kick up 4+ footers on an out going tide. Getting into the channel was a rock and roll experience, the difference is, now I somewhat enjoy it!! However, the admiral has a somewhat different view. All I can say is once you get to know the boat better you will feel more comfortable.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 09:44:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">ps. In case you can't read between the lines this message is a plea for words of re-assurance, boat handling tips, etc<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"Don't worry be happy"

Every new sailor has that "Holy S***t! Why am I doing this!" feeling the first few times they go out and find out that the romantic, red sails in the sunset, lazy, drifting along, martini in hand, sailing experience is not the norm. So, Don't worry,be happy, you have just become a real sailor.That brief period of exhileration that you felt is why most of us sail. Now all you have to do is develop skills, abilities, and confidence to handel whatever conditions the sea throws at you. If you are lucky it will only take the rest of your life to learn what you and your boat can and can not do. To start with, if you haven't done so already, I would suggest that you and your wife take a safe boating and boat handeling class like the ones offered by the Power Squadron. Next you might try to sign on as race crew with someone who has the same boat as you do. Even if you have no intentions of ever racing your own boat you will benifit from the experience of seeing how much pounding a boat (and you) can take and still remain upright. One of the things that you will learn right away is that sailboats ride the waves better with the proper combination of sails up than with the motor down. Check the local marine forecast each time before you go out (But don't accept it as Gospel)and try to pick good days to practice but be prepared for anything. As your knowledge and experience increase the the range of weather conditions that you consider as "good" sailing weather will expand. You might even get a couple of evening sails where no one spills their Martini.

Oh Yeah!
Sailing tip #1 - Try not to take the waves broadside. Whenever possible, arrange your approach to your marina entrance so that you are taking the waves on a 45 degree angle (either on the bow or stern quarter) for as long as possible, even if it means a less direct approach to the entrance. If it is absolutely necessary to sail broadside to the waves then stay alert and steer up into each wave just before it gets to the boat then bear off again as it passes then do the same for the next wave. Think of it as weaving, or sewing your way through the the sea. In sailing the shortest distance is not always a straight line.

Don't Worry Be HAPPY - You're a sailor.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 10:58:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I could see exactly what whoever it was that talked about getting "blown over" was talking about<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You need to get a clear understanding of 'blown over'. Sailing lessons and or having a capable sailor sail with you on your boat will help you define this for yourselves.
When My Admiral read on this site, then experienced for herself that we have a very safe boat that was not going to tip over, she started to love sailing and now is a competent sailor and excellent racer. She didn't trust my sailboat skills, she did not have faith in any boat let alone our boat. She (and I) stuck with it and are very happy that we did.
Last time we were out, my Admiral wanted me to bury the rail because she wanted a picture to show her students...this is a 100% contrast to the white knuckle days when she would yell "Too far too far" when the boat was heeled over too far.

this is a picture of my daughter and the Admiral bracing their feet while we were heeled over past 33 degrees. We were doing this intentionally and had a blast doing so. This was as far as we could get it to heel over, I tried to get it to go further but we kept rounding up when we tried to go past this point.
Stick with it and those feelings of fear will be replaced by exhileration.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 11:22:29

Keep in mind that, for experienced sailors, you are describing nearly ideal conditions (winds 15, seas 3 to 4).

Even if motoring, your boat will roll A WHOLE LOT LESS with the main sail up and sheeted in hard. If it is too windy, reef it.

Once you get the hang of sailing, if it is windy like you describe and you are sailing with main and jib, you will find the boat is a million times more stable (less roll).

As has been said, right now, just try to go out in winds 5 to 10 and calm seas. Get a local sailor to go out with you and give you some tips.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 11:24:08

>"I imagined having sails up and getting hit with those broadside waves "

Nothing would have happened and you would have been more comfortable!

Traditional sailboat hulls are very different from powerboat hulls. With round bilge turns and relatively narrow transoms they are designed to heel. With no sails up they will rock and roll unmercifully with waves on the beam. If you put a sail up you'll find that the force genrated by the sail acts as a stablizer and the rolling goes away. With main only or a reefed main you would likely have been very comfortable... and probably enjoyed the ride.

Think of a sailboat as a submarine with masts. With the hatches secured and the companionway boards in place it's very difficult to sink one short of encountering catastrophic conditions (large breaking seas). You may get some spray in the cockpit, but you will be quite safe.

>"hit with waves over a meter."

Heh.. that's the very nicest of summer days here on the North Pacific. Wave period is important though... a 3' chop will get you wet. A 12' long-period swell is smooth and easy sailing.

Suggestions:

1) Get an experienced sailor to go with you on your first trip under sail... or hitch a ride on another boat.
2) On a calm day stay at the dock and practice setting, furling and reefing your sails.
3) First time out... Pick a nice day, put up the main only and get used to handling it.
4) Sailboats HEEL. They are made to.
5) Managing your sail area will manage the heel. 5 to 20 degrees of heel is normal and comfortable.
6) Don't panic! The C25 is a safe and well-mannered boat.

Your confidence and enjoyment will build with your experience.
Hang in there.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 11:42:47

Steve said it best. Learn about the wind.

I had a very similar experience the first time I took Kaija out of the bay and into Lake Erie. I had furled my jib and reefed the main. As I was bouncing like crazy,a cutter rigged boat sailed by me with 3 sails flying and the crew looking very serene in exactly the same chop. Seeing that, I let out the jib a bit (it's on a roller) and the boat stabilized a lot.

It's like riding a horse, you gotta get back on. Don't let this scare you away.

Congratulations on becoming a sailor.

Edited by - on

dmattlin
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 12:21:13

Soudns familular..
We all have this experence early in our sailing adventures. Mine was not so long ago and it was not a whole lot different.
I learned to sail on big heavy Islander sailboat, I was not expecting my Catalina to get tossed the way that it did.
Afterwars received some great advice from from one of my slip neighbors (JimB). He said "Even when your just motoring put up your main, it will make the boat much more stable". I have found that is these little things that have made things much easier..

hang in there.. It only gets better!!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:28:40

Excellent stuff above... Yup--we've all been there! Our early experience was on a 17' Daysailer that indeed could capsize, sailing occasionally in 15-20 knots crashing through 4' chop (not rollers) on Long Island Sound. When we got the C-25, it seemed like an ocean liner!

To amplify something about safety and stability... It's not always easy to accept this on a visceral level, but two things are working together to make it virtually impossible for your C-25 to actually "tip over"--both somewhat obvious but worth restating and thinking about:

1. As the heeling angle increases, the sails present less effective area for the wind to push against, and are angled more for the wind to spill off.

2. As the heeling angle increases, the 1900 lbs. of lead or cast iron in the keel (fin) gains leverage against the forces heeling the boat. (This is most of the reason for the violent rolling you experienced--the keel was working like a pendulum.)

These are the reasons that Stampeder couldn't get much past 30 degrees, even when he tried. They're also the reasons you haven't read a single post on these forums (that I can remember) about somebody capsizing their C-25. It would take a very large breaking wave on the beam, or a "broach" when flying a spinaker in high winds, to put the mast in the water. You won't be doing either of those things, right??

Here's one more vote for getting an experienced sailor out with you in <=10 knot breezes. You'll fall in love!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/10/2008 14:36:52

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:58:07

Peter,
As most of the guys have stated, we've all had our days where we questioned our sanity as well as our boat's ability to handle what we were in. 15 knots of wind will be a kick in the pants once you've got some time under your belt. It starts to get interesting when it gets above 20 knots. My wife is still in the white knuckle stage, but she's getting better. I hope to eventually have a break through with her so that when we do hit the exciting stuff, she exhilarated instead of terrified. Right now, if I get past about 15 degrees of heel, she's making fingerprint impressions on the winch drums as she holds on. She's afraid the boat's going to go right over, and no amount of physics is going to convince her otherwise till she simply learns that it's extremely unlikely to happen. Part of her fear stems from not being a strong swimmer, and no one else has mentioned this yet (apologies if I missed it), but invest in good PFD's for you & your crew, and wear them. Rita & I wear ours in good weather & bad. When I sailed by myself, I didn't worry about it too much because I was on a lake & figured I could always just swim to the shore. Now we sail on Puget Sound, and if nothing else, it's damn cold. Get some good PFDs (there are plenty of threads on this, we like auto inflators for their simplicity, but make your own choices), at least you'll have some extra safety on your side & it should help alleviate some of the anxiety you or your crew might be experiencing.

Welcome to the club, it's going to be a ball.

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 15:34:03

I say walk it off

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 18:16:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by knightwind
 Now we're talking winds around 15 and waves "less than a meter" which amounted to one foot waves on top of 3 foot rolling sets.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Peter,

I pray for those exact conditions every time I head to the boat! When it's a little whitecappy, I start droolin'.

As to the boat rocking and rolling under power, what everyone already said. It doesn't take much to get the boat flopping all over the place, but once the sails are up its smooth sailing.

Today I was out on Lake Erie for about 6 hours and it was a gorgeous day. Winds were from the north at 10-15kts for three hours then they turned 180 degrees blowing from the south for my return trip. Out six hours and only one tack. Gotta love that.

"Maybe this is why people buy a boat and spend the season drinking in a gazebo in front of it."

Those would be the powerboaters (Dave excluded, of course

). I don't know how it is at other marinas, but at mine, the powerboaters gather around the picnic tables and talk about boating all day. This isn't due to the price of gas because they've been doing this for as long as I've been at the marina (13 years). That is the reason I couldn't get on the powerboat bandwagon. Well, that and I can't afford the huge gold zodiac medallions hanging from chunky gold necklaces.

If I'm on my boat, its underway.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 19:04:41

The Admiral read this thread and asked that I respond.

Our previous sailing history together was on a LaserII and Hobie Cats. When we purchased JD new it was our first 'real' boat.

It's now just 3 years since we took our first trip in JD on calm waters with barely enough wind.
Shortly after that we took our first sail on Biscayne Bay and were hit by a squall that turned us 360 degrees while under 110% jib alone. Heeling way beyond the now allowable 15degrees (recently upgraded to 20!). White knuckles? you bet! Upset spouse? Absolutely, it took two years to get over that issue.

Our last trip we enjoyed 18-20knot winds and 3' seas and had a great time!

It seems the secret is to start off with very little sail! Reef the main, and roll in the jib and don't worry that you're not going as fast as you could under full canvas. The crew will be much happier and able to learn the sublties of flattening sails, dumping wind, turning up, just about the whole gamit of backseat helmsmanship. But what a difference! Peggy is now able to enjoy the puffs instead of fearing them, if we heel at 15 degrees she's looking at the sails and recognizing the balance. Life is good!

Go with minimal sail, and enjoy rather than go for it and scare the begeebers out of the crew.

Looking forward to your reports of some great sailing trips.

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 11:42:42

Peter,

Here's a video I took of conditions on Lake Erie similar to what you described. If I remember correctly, waves were somewhere around 3-4' with winds maybe 15-20. I was flying a full main and a 135.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2937627551303966063&q=source:003338950891161735835&hl=en"]Sailing in a Breeze[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 13:15:48

That looks to me like 2' seas and about 12 knots of wind. Perfect!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 13:35:14

Dave,

The conditions that day were probably similar to today. 15kt winds with gusts to 20. Waves 3-5'.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 18:46:46

Before we purchased our Catalina 25, we owned a Venture 21. Sailing on a shallow lake (10' everywhere) the waves can quickly get whipped up into something resembling an angry roller coaster. The first time we had the Venture 21 out in 3-4 waves (very short and very choppy), the boat was bobbing like a cork, waves were occasionally crashing over the bow, and I wasn't smart enough to realize that raising a sail would stabilize the boat. I was a little too preoccupied with my death grip on the tiller which I had determined was the only thing between us and a permanent berth 2 fathoms down. And then I noticed my crew in the cabin (My 6 and 8 year old boys.) I had sent them below when the storm kicked up so that I could concentrate fully on not dying.
Well the intrepid young sailors had laid down the dinette, made up the bed (which covered the bottom of the cabin) and padded the walls with sail bags and pfd's, and invented a game called 'surfing' - where they took turns seeing who could stay standing the longest as the boat pitched and heeled. They were having a fantastic time, (and to this day are secretly a little upset that we traded in the venture 21 for a much more seaworthy Catalina 25.) Once I saw them enjoying things, I was able to relax and I realized the only thing that scared me more than a run-in with Davey Jones was that my family might decide they didn't like sailing because of the storm! I spent the next few days figuring out reefing so I felt more confident, and a year later we bought our Catalina 25.
I don't know what it is about kids, they NEVER get seasick and have an ENDLESS supply of games.
Thanks everyone for your explanations above - I'm looking forward to some slightly heavier winds!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 20:42:33

Here's your training video :>) 'Anita im Orkan' cut-n-paste

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKusg6Jyc9Y&feature=related

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:06:23

That boat desperately needs a drogue!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/11/2008 21:07:18

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:38:34

I'm in my 4th year of sailing on Lake Michigan and as being an owner of a Catalina 25. I learned real fast the value of having the mainsail up even when motoring. The one time I was really scared was at the end of my 1st season when I was beginning to feel confident handeling the boat. I needed to get my boat to its winter storage home so I planned on simply motoring at night without the mainsail up. I didnt want the hassle of dealing with the sail when I got to my destination. It was going to require me to motor out roughly 5 miles from shore to avoid some shoals off the south side of Chicago and then go strait southwest for about 6 miles to get to the entrance to the Calumet river. I motored out of the harbor in the dark without checking the conditions into what appeared to be 5-8 foot seas. It scared the living s__t out of me. I couldnt see anything because of the darkness except walls of water, the boat was rolling allot plus I couldnt immediately turn around since the winds were from the south and I was afraid of broaching and/or being driven into the rocks at the entrance to the harbor. I got back okay and waited for a better day. Needless to say I've learned alot since that incident.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 00:11:37

Sounds pretty much like [url="http://www.sailblogs.com/member/enka/?xjMsgID=4375"]our first day out[/url]. It does get better, trust me.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:10:19

Hey Knightwind. My offer still stands. Launch & rigging is Thursday, relocation sail will be either Thursday evening or Friday. Saturday if the right weather window doesn't open up.

SWMBO and I came into sailing from canoeing. We started canoeing very gradually, our first time we took the canoe to a friends farm and paddled back and forth across an irrigation pond figuring out sculling, draws, pries, and landings. Once we had the basic strokes down, we moved to the grand river.

Our first canoe "expedition" was from Cambridge to Brantford on the Grand with a stopover on "Sarah's Island" where we spent the night. Now we knew how to paddle and pack the canoe and had done these things in safe sheltered waters. We moved up to interior trips through Algonquin and learned to make things work for upwards of a week at a time. After that we took ORCA courses and got the whitewater and campcraft skills to tackle truly wild rivers. We would never have set off to paddle the Nahanni as our first river, but I am confident that I could join an expedition to it now and have no trouble.

Sailing is much the same. After learning to sail on a friend's very safe Catalina 27, crewing races, and taking courses with [url="http://www.sailing.ca/training/index.asp"]CYA[/url] and [url="http://www.cps-ecp.ca/"]Power Squadron[/url], I am confident that this summer, our first with our own boat, we will be ok as long as we keep the mentality that we need to learn alot before we try to tackle anything too crazy.

By the end of the season last year, we had reached a point where our friends would meet us at the boat (after we had opened it for them) crack their beers open, and ask where we were taking them for the day. I can remember days when they would never touch the lines or tiller, and leave everything to us. It was great.

I have the advantage of having done a little dinghy sailing as a kid, and a sea cadet background, but I know I am low on the learning curve. I expect a lot of that to change over the course of this summer.

I would encourage you to get out with other sailors, and contact LOCA about events in your neighbourhood. If you can get out on the water with a "teacher" of any kind, you will see how things work together to make sailing as enjoyable as possible.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:09:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Hey Knightwind. My offer still stands. Launch & rigging is Thursday, relocation sail will be either Thursday evening or Friday. Saturday if the right weather window doesn't open up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Peter,

You are smart to have sung the blues to these die-hard sailors. You've already lined up a good teacher! Go for it!!!

You can pick up a lot of tips from Chris first hand, and keep learning from the old salts on this Forum as well.

I learned about sailing on a sunfish in Little Pleasant Bay on Cape Cod where we could get out and walk if we got knocked down. Then I learned about keel boats on my college buddy's C-25 SR/SK crewing with him dozens of times over about 5 years on the Narragansett Bay. That's why I bought this boat.

Edited by - JohnP on 05/12/2008 12:11:24

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.