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I broke my engine! (Update)

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 05/16/2008 : 20:26:31

Ok, it was my stupid fault and the only reason I'm braving it out here is because this might help someone else avoid the same expensive screw up!

Engine is a Tohatsu 9.8hp 4 stroke extra long shaft engine

Problem: Engine Seized.
Reason: no oil.
How did this happen: I misunderstood the manual and didn't put oil in the upper section after draining both.

Let me clarify so that others don't make this expensive mistake.
There are 3 oil drain holes on the engine. One is in the lower edge of the engine itself, one is in the very bottom part of the extension where the prop-shaft is located, and the third is a few inches above the lowest one.

The two lower drain holes seem to be for the prop shaft and 90d gear box.
The top one is for the engine!

To fill the prop shaft gear box the procedure is to remove both the lower screws and drain the oil out the bottom one. Then using a squirt bottle of oil, force oil in the lower hole until it flows from the top hole. At that point you have to quickly insert the lower drain screw to prevent the oil pouring back out, then reinsert the middle drain screw.

To replace the oil in the engine, the process appears to be to drain it from the top most drain hole (in the side of the lower engine casing) tilting the engine several times to get the oil out. and then replace the drain plug and fill the engine to the correct level using the oil fill at the back of the engine and checking the level with the dip stick.

My screw up was draining both top and lower units, and only putting oil in the lower unit. (If you read the manual you might figure out how I made this error)

Ok, now that I have pleaded guilty and acknowledged that I screwed up and should have checked the dipstick before starting the engine (like I normally do #$@#$S#!!!) now I have to figure out the best option to get back in business.

Here are the options that I'm aware of right now.
a) Go buy a new Tohatsu (I'll have a lot of spare parts!)
b) Go buy a different model with power raising!
c) Take it to a repair center???
d) Try a DIY repair!

The way I see it, the most likely problem (other than my temporary stupidity) (I'll flagellate myself for a few hours yet!), is that the big ends have seized on the shaft, possibly the piston rings have seized in the bores.
The engine seized within less than a minute of starting and never got much above restart speed. And yes! I have let it cool down, there is oil in it now and no, it won't turn even under manual start, it's SOLID!

Be gentle!

Paul.

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Edited by - britinusa on 05/28/2008 06:27:31

delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/16/2008 : 21:00:34

Paul,
So sorry to hear about your engine. Makes my problems with mine pale in comparison. I hope you're able to get your engine running again. At best this is a very expensive lesson, and I appreciate your sharing it, as much as I'm sure you didn't want to.

Not sure how helpful this might be, but I was able to un-sieze a VW bus's engine by bump starting it. What I didn't know at the time was that I had gas in my oil (I'd rolled the bus in a blizzard a few weeks earlier, an entirely different story). It ended up upside down in the ditch on I-81 and I guess gas leaked down into the crankcase diluting the oil. Of course that didn't stop it from eventually seizing again, simply because I never changed the oil/gas mixture (didn't know about it, plus young & stupid). Take this with a large grain of salt, but you might be able to spin it by changing to a very light grade of oil. However, I personally wouldn't try this, I'd take it to a reputable shop to see what they have to say. I've long since lost any desire to wrench on engines, unless I have to.

I'm going to re-read my manual to see what it says about the procedure.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/16/2008 : 21:11:58

Thanks David, I had read through your thread. Today, before connecting the fuel line, I pumped it prior to connecting to the engine, to avoid floodding it (oh to have that problem

)

Just had a friend point me to http://www.tohatsu-outboard-parts.com

Just need to figure out the exact model (from two they show)

Paul

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/16/2008 : 22:13:18

Maybe you can just replace the powerhead?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/16/2008 : 22:25:35

Paul,

Sorry to hear about your outboard. I am not sure what I would do if I were in your shoes. I probably would bring it in to the shop and get the mechanic to provide some kind of assessment and ballpark range of cost to fix.

As far as the guidance in oil changes, the way I understand it with the lower unit screw plugs (common on other outboard brands as well) is that you remove both plugs and drain the oil out the bottom one. Then, ideally you have the squirt bottle with the screw adapter that fits your outboard's lower drain hole. That then minimizes spillage while filling the oil. Then once the oil reaches the top screw and just starts to come out of it, you first screw in the top plug. That then is supposed to minimize oil coming out of the lower drain plug after you take the oil filler off of it and start to screw the plug in. The reason for putting the oil plug in the top hole first is that it's supposed to help create a vacuum in the top chamber and then the oil is less likely to drain fast out the bottom while fiddling with the oil bottle and drain plug. Ideally, it is sort of the effect of holding your finger on the top of a straw that has liquid in it....the liquid generally will not drain from the straw due to the vacuum that would be created if oil went down the tube. Ideally, this is the case. Reality is that the oil does come out and so you have to work fast.

The manufacturer recommends filling from the bottom drain plug because the ideal is that it will minimize air bubbles captured inside the l;ower unit. However, before I got my oil adapter for the lower plug, I found it easier to screw the lower drain plug back in and then using tube adapters, fill the oil thru the top drain plug (the one just above the lower drain plug) using a very small tube inserted into the hole.

As far as draining and filling the engine oil. I do not take out the drain plug. I use a manual vacuum oil pump and suck the oil out of the dipstick tube. Works great and no mess !

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 09:07:35

Bummer.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 09:14:54

Right now we're considering buying a new one as our first choice, simply because we don't want to miss sailing all summer!
We've read so many reports (here and elsewhere) of repair shops keeping outboards for weeks if not months. And doing it ourselves is also full of issues (do we get all the parts the first time around or will we end up waiting another week for delivery of an unexpected part, do we have all the tools or will we have to purchase some that we'll never use again? Can we find a manual that describes stripping and rebuilding the engine like the we used to get for repairing our autos (don't do that anymore!).

So, now it's where to get one.

Several folks have used outboards online from the forum. Please post if you have and any advice in that area.

We contemplated buying from a local dealer, but to be honest, we've not seen a local dealer that we would take the engine to for repair(see notes above on repair shops). We could get one from the boat dealer where we purhcased JD. It'll cost a lot more than Outboards online and financially it's already a very expensive oil change!

Do we still get a discount at outboards online??????

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 05/17/2008 09:15:45

Stardog
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 09:34:41

This begs another question to be answered: I have a new Tohatsu on my boat, I got the 6hp model as I rarely use an engine, except to manoeuvre in the marina at close quarters. Anyway, I have about 2 hours of running time on this engine and I'm wondering when is best to change oil during or after break-in?

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 10:34:01

Paul,

I feel your pain brother. Let's just say that I met my in-laws under interesting circumstances and leave it there. Has to do with my American car in Frankfurt......

I'd be looking to buy a new one. It's about trust. Will you trust an engine that's had catastrophic failure to be there for you as you're crossing the gulf stream? I know I wouldn't.

Good luck.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 10:57:14

Thanks John, just noted sandusky in your sig.
We were up that way moons ago taking the ferry to Kelleys Island with family that's still in ohio & michigan.

Ms.OSHA (the admiral) is definitely on your side, the driving force for the 'new' option.

Regarding crossing the gulf stream.

Each trip we commute out of the marina and down a dogleg channel between very nasty rocks. I have contemplated the issues involved in engine failure in that channel especially as their are normally cross currents and winds. I have mentally reviewed the options and the first is to toss an anchor front and back then get on the horn to boatus. If winds permitted, then channel transit under sail would be an option, but the channel is barely wide enough to handle two big boats passing. So we place a lot of faith in our outboard.

still trying to find out if we get a discount at outboards online.

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 11:07:29

If you have a local dealer (Fort Lubberdale?), he might be interested in a modest trade-in, and then fixing and selling your engine. ...or he might not. (You probably burned the upper crank-shaft bearing.) Either way, it's nice to have somebody on your side when stuff happens...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/17/2008 11:12:51

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 11:16:13

We bought a Nissan from onlineoutboards.com for our C22. Fast delivery and we were very happy with the motor. I believe you get an additional Association discount. You have to logon to the Members section to see it I believe.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 14:50:43

What a bummer...

My old Honda (BF8) has an oil pressure light... no glow, you're supposed to shut the engine down. Frankly it's just a dim, flickering green light.. it is NOT something that grabs your attention and I don't know if I really look at it anymore when I start the engine, though I likely would after changing oil. Odds are you'd never notice it going out if you were underway.

I see that the new Honda outboards purport to come with an "Integrated Warning System... to protect from low oil (etc)" Dunno if they now produce an audible alarm or it's just fancy talk for having a dim light that glows when there is oil pressure. :>)

Yamaha also shows an 'Engine Sensing Warning System' as standard but doesn't elaborate on what it does. Hopefully it does more than sense an engine is present. (I make a joke, hey!)

The Tohatsu site says the engine has a 'Low Oil Pressure Indicator' plus an 'Overheat Warining Indicator (both audible and visible). Too bad they didn't make the low oil pressure warning audible too. :>(

Folks here have been having a hard time finding much to talk about in the Honda vs. Yamaha vs Tohatsu arugment... maybe the functionality of the engine warning systems is one difference.

For those of you with new engines... what sort of alarms do you get for oil pressure and overtemp?

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 15:22:15

Don't laugh too much, but I wondered what that red light was down on the front side of the engine that I had never seen before!!!!!

Right now we're aiming at placing an order for Online Outboards via the site monday. With luck we'll have the new engine on the transome within a week and we'll manage to squeeze in a quick trip before our bimini cruise in June.

This is turning out to be the $2,000 oil change!

(of course, you wonder why the engine is not designed to cut out if the warning light displays!)

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 05/17/2008 15:23:11

sweetcraft
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 15:42:14

Engine Alert System
The integrated warning system protects
the engine from severe damage due to
low oil, over-revving and overheating.

I hadn't thought of the Honda feature above except for the overheating. This thread has brought it to my attention that there is also a low oil warning. This running out of oil with a 4 cycle is always a concern. Paul, I hope you can get this worked out and thanks for the sharing. This is a wake up call for us all the check and double check. I have run out of oil in the lower unit and it cost a new shaft and bearings. The first outboard had no warning devices and especially the lower unit. I did put together a sight tube for the lower unit on that engine and it gave me peace of mind when out on a 5 week cruise. Good luck for a quick and cheap fix.

Edited by - sweetcraft on 05/17/2008 15:44:06

delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 15:44:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Don't laugh too much, but I wondered what that red light was down on the front side of the engine that I had never seen before!!!!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was hesitating to ask that question, sort of felt like rubbing salt in the wound. The Tohatsu's have a low oil pressure light, so that when oil pressure drops, the light comes on, and only flashes briefly during startup to let you know it's working. It's also quite bright, so you'd stand a chance of seeing it if you happened to be looking back at the engine when it was on. Theoretically the engine will only run up to 3000 RPM if the oil level drops below some set point, but since you were only running at idle speeds, you'd have never gotten this warning.

I'm not trying to be smug, but this is one of the reasons I always read my manuals cover to cover at least once. I may not retain the entire thing, but part of it might come back to me when something that's out of the ordinary it mentions occurs.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 15:53:58

A light I would never see but if a buzzer sounded I would have a chance to maybe correct the situation. My Honda has a buzzer which is very loud for a high temp and the engine slows down to an idle. This happened once after catching a big seaweed bunch around the outboard cutting off the water intake. I did install a high temperature buzzer on the 2 cycle outboard with the switch bolted to the outboard head and the horn inside the boat. West Marine had both of the units in the cataloq.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 18:26:11

Hi Paul,

Rita (David's wife) here. Breaking an engine is way smarter than breaking one's heel bone.

Enjoy your new engine!

Edited by - on

Dave Otey
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Response Posted - 05/18/2008 : 06:32:36

Sorry to hear your misfortune. I'm with the "replacement" camp. Reliability is paramount IMHO. Nissan if you so choose shipped mine immediately. You should get a $75 benefit from buying through the Association. They ship the engines "dry', no oil. Good luck with your new engine. A mechanic may find value in your frozen engine.

For those that have not experienced laying the engine (Nissan)on the wrong side (anything but tiller down) you will have oil run into the cylinder chamber and out of the engine all over items you may not want oiled. (does this sound like the voice of experience) The danger in having oil in your cylinders is you can also have catastropic results if you are successful in cranking your engine over with the cylinders filled with oil. If you see oil running out of your engine when it has been layed down I would exercise caution and get the engine in an upright position,take out the spark plugs, hand crank the engine which will evacuate the oil from the cylinders. If you don't want the oil to blow all over I recommend a shield of cloth be placed in front of the sparkplug cavaties. My oil projected 20 feet plus on the first hand crank. I emphasize "hand crank" because if for some reason the engine gets locked due to oil in the cylinders you will be hard pressed to crank it over by brute strength. If you were to use the starter motor you may be able to crank it but you would also create that "catastrophic damage".
Good luck with your decision and fairwinds, Dave

Edited by - Dave Otey on 05/18/2008 06:34:30

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 05/18/2008 : 23:17:44

It might not hurt to at least check the price of a rebuild - Northwest Florida Outboards (http://floridaoutboard.com/homecontact.html) in Pensacola has been around for a long time and has a decent warranty.

Edited by - on

tchowes
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Response Posted - 05/18/2008 : 23:41:58

I have to say that reading some of these engine troubles makes me want for the simplicity of the ole' environmentally incorrect 2 cycles! Haven't ordered my Tohatsu yet, but I'm starting to get nervous!

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 05:45:46

I wouldn't get overly concerned with engine troubles regarding 4 stroke engines. Adding oil separately to an engine crankcase is a very common thing with many engines...and occasionally...we all forget to do something. Hopefully, when we do forget to do something....it is something much simpler with an easier remedy...like forgetting to take your foul weather gear out of the car...then you just go back and get it.

You have to evaluate each of these issues. In the above case, there was no oil in the crankcase. I don't want to go out on a limb here....but pretty sure if you forgot to add oil to you car's engine or your lawnmower, you would have same issue - seizure or something bad. In the case of a 2 stroke engine, you do not have to add oil separately (so that is of benefit since you also do not have to drain it and replace it) but you still have to add oil into the gas and pretty sure if you did not do that for whole tank of gas, it would probably ruin the valves in the engine - also bad news.....and not sure if you would have an engine light or whatever coming on for a 2 stroke engine - since the oil is not separately pumped and monitored.

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atgep
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 06:47:02

Sorry to hear your troubles.
I think you made the right choice. I have had my Nissan for nearly 3 years and NEVER have regretted the investment. Running it dry is the most destructive thing you could do to the powerhead. Even rebuilt, there would always be a thought in the back of your head....."did they fix everything?"

You do have significant value left on the "hulk" engine. The lower end would be a nice find for someone looking to upgrade to XL shaft. The top end has everything required to convert to electric start. Ebay is the obvious choice here. The mid section is also valuable for the tilt/clamp mechanism. I got around 300 for my worn out Johnson sailmaster that barely ran.

Good luck with all this and dont fret too much.....stuff happens.

Edited by - on

DanM
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 07:14:17

Paul - Sympathy and empathy on your troubles. Ditto to atgep's remarks.

For what its worth, I found a parts buyer for the Merc that came with my boat (turned out to be a piece of s__t after being certified by a Merc dealer; but that's another story). Did not fetch what I had into it, but it eased the pain when I bought a new Nissan from Porta-bote.

You will find the peace of mind you deserve in your waters with a new engine, whatever the make.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 08:00:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 In the case of a 2 stroke engine, you do not have to add oil separately (so that is of benefit since you also do not have to drain it and replace it) but you still have to add oil into the gas and pretty sure if you did not do that for whole tank of gas, it would probably ruin the valves in the engine - also bad news.....and not sure if you would have an engine light or whatever coming on for a 2 stroke engine - since the oil is not separately pumped and monitored.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, two strokes engines do not have a valve train like 4 cycle engines. They have reed valves, a thin metal strip that flaps open and closed during the intake cycle. Reed valves don't require lubrication like the valves in a 4 stroke.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 08:26:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tchowes
 I have to say that reading some of these engine troubles makes me want for the simplicity of the ole' environmentally incorrect 2 cycles! Haven't ordered my Tohatsu yet, but I'm starting to get nervous!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tim, FWIW, our good experiences with our Tohatsu are shown in our choice of it's replacement... another Tohatsu! We probably rely a little more than most on that engine. Because we mostly sail in Biscayne Bay, launching from Black Point Marina,

(look at it on [url="http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=25.534039,-80.31538&spn=0.027494,0.057163&t=h&z=15"]maps.google.com[/url])

We have several thousand feet of narrow channel with nasty rock on both sides to navigate in order to get to deeper water. The same is true for the 3 main launch sites in Biscayne Bay southern end. We trust our Tohatsu to keep us underway. I would stand up and strongly recommend Tohatsu as a very reliable engine.

I'm pretty sure that any engine would have issues if the owner failed to supply oil where needed (in the 4Stroke sump or in the 2Stroke fuel.)

We carry 3.5 gallons of fuel in the outboard tank and an extra 5gallons for top up. We used to carry another 1.5gallons (easy to handle) top up tank but if I used it I would then have to refill it from the 5gal so now we just carry the 5gal extra.) We don't have to fool around with fuel oil mix and as the engine has the California emissions code we feel comfortable that we're minimising our exhaust.

I'll know by end of day where we're going to get the new engine. Right now it's looking like outboards online, but my boating neighbor recommended a dealer locally and we're talking with them to see if there's any part exchange options. The old engine will be a very good deal for someone.

Paul

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