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Newbie's First time out - Comments questions

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knightwind
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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2008 : 00:22:02

Well we finally got out sailing a few times this week.
For the novice in me it's always been perfect...light winds and calm seas.
When you turn off the engine and start gliding along silently...it was an unforgettable moment...that's what its all about isn't it fellas.
And pictures like this...

Now I have a few questions.

I'm not sure I have my boom connected in the right place to the mast.
The last "thingy" on the sail doesn't stay in the groove on the mast as it comes out the "entry slot". I may not be raising the main sail fully...do I have to use a winch handle? And my green main halyard seems to have to be tied to the starboard butterfly cleat...but I really would like it to tie under the port winch...I tried switching the halyards but then it looked pretty much like the jib halyard would block the mail sail when it raised..so I put them back...it can't be right can it? Here's a picture.

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 01:08:45

Congratulations on your first sail, Peter.

I can't quite figure out your halyard issue -- I'm sure some other folks will be able to help.

About the sail slug (the "thingy") leaving the mast gate (slot): I think you have a standard rig mast (judging from the single backstay). It looks as though your boom is too low, which is why that last slug won't stay in the kerf (the name for the whole slot). The head of your sail, when raised, should be pretty close to the top of the mast. Next time you're out, loosen the line from the cleat under the boom gooseneck (where the boom attaches to the mast), raise the sail nearly to the top of the mast, then pull down that line under the boom and cleat it.

As for using a winch handle when you raise the main -- most of us like to take the wrinkles out of the luff (forward edge of the sail). It makes the air flow more cleanly and efficiently. As you develop your sailing skills, you will learn that tightening ("hardening') the halyard is helpful in higher winds, and easing it a bit helps when winds are light. Whether you need a winch handle depends upon your own strength, as well as what kind of sail shape you're looking for.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 05:32:04

Agree with above post. The Catalina 25s come in two basic mast sizes - A standard rig and a tall rig. This seems contrary to what one would think but the tall rig actually has the boom lower closer to the cabin top than the standard rig (with mast length 2' lower). The standard rig boom is actually attached higher on the mast than the tall rig boom. So, if you see some catalina's with the boom set lower, they probably have the higher mast configuration.

The sail slug should be well above the mast slot. Your photos do not show it but your main sail should come within inches of the top of the mast (mast block). My guess from looking at your lower sail slug and it's close proximity to the mast slot, your main sail is probably at least a foot away from the top of the mast.

As far as the cleating or winching of the main sail halyard. I assume (and I may be wrong) but thought all main halyards are on the starboard side (of the mast) and the jib halyard on the port side. That is the arrangementon my '89 Catalina and I was on John P's '78 Catalina, yesterday, and that is also the arrangement on his boat.

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 08:07:26

Peter, congrats on your first sails (and safe return).

In pix #3, the downhaul on the main, line running from the boom to a cleat centered below it on the mast, seems loose. See, also in pix #1 the slack appearance of the sail (even for that light air). That indicates to me that you do not have the sail raised all the way. You should leave the downhaul un-cleated until the sail is raised to the top of the mast. Then haul it down to trim the luff. You might also run it thru the block beneath the cleat and back up to the cleat, for ease in trimming as Brooke describes. When you become more familiar with sail trim you will learn about the cunningham, which is what I use that block for.

From your #3pix, it looks like you have a plate at the deck beneath your mast. Do you have a winch on the starboard cabintop? If so, the main halyard can be led through a block attached there and then aft to that winch.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 08:26:54

Peter,

It looks like your main was made at Kent Sails. I had some work done there awhile ago. They did nice work.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 09:12:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DanM
 Peter, congrats on your first sails (and safe return).

In pix #3, the downhaul on the main, line running from the boom to a cleat centered below it on the mast, seems loose. See, also in pix #1 the slack appearance of the sail (even for that light air). That indicates to me that you do not have the sail raised all the way. You should leave the downhaul un-cleated until the sail is raised to the top of the mast. Then haul it down to trim the luff. You might also run it thru the block beneath the cleat and back up to the cleat, for ease in trimming as Brooke describes. When you become more familiar with sail trim you will learn about the cunningham, which is what I use that block for.

From your #3pix, it looks like you have a plate at the deck beneath your mast. Do you have a winch on the starboard cabintop? If so, the main halyard can be led through a block attached there and then aft to that winch.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I kinda felt the main wasn't fully raised. Not sure how hard I can pull on the main halyard...and I end up using the winch to pull it up then I have to take it off the winch to tie it on the stbd cleat...doesn't seem right.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 09:35:55

Peter: Congratulations--you just "got it"! (...the essence of sailing.) To help you with the details, it might help us if you can provide a photo of your cabintop. There may be some hardware that should be involved in the discussion. (...or not.)

Leaving the "downhaul" (line from the bottom of the gooseneck) uncleated while raising the mainsail should allow you to hoist it to the top reasonably easily. The boom will raise a little with it as you get to the top. (Don't let the gooseneck rise as far as the gate/opening. Then you can fairly easily tension the leading edge of the sail (the luff) by pulling the boom down and cleating the downhaul--no winch required. Assuming a standard rig mast, your boom should end up about 6' above the cockpit sole.

But this is all minor stuff... You're sailing!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/19/2008 18:04:59

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 09:47:08

The main sail should not look all baggy like that in the last picture. It should be tight and flat. The main halyard is not tight enough, usually you do need to winch it up to get it tight. The cleat should be behind the winch and you should be leaving the coils of line on the winch.

But second, I'm sure from the last photo that the outhaul is too loose. The outhaul is at the stern end of the boom and pulls the foot of the sail aft along the boom to tighten the foot.

The main should look like this:

Not all wrinkled and baggy.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 10:21:45

You should make, or purchase from Catalina Direct, a set of Mast Slot Plates to prevent the sail slugs from coming out of the mast slot.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/nymslot.asp

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 10:33:28

Cangratulations to you and your Admiral! Yes, that sunset is exactly what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.

These guys are all far more knowledgeable than I so, look at the things they suggest. But, there are 2 more lines to look at as well. Was your boom vang (the line that runs through tackle at a 45 degree angle from the base of the mast to the boom) and mainsheet loose? If those 2 lines are cleated off as you raise the sail, they could be holding the boom down too far. Both of those lines, particularly the boom vang, should be able to run free during sail hoisting.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/19/2008 10:35:37

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 10:45:32

Oh, one more thing.

While I agree that your mains'l should be higher, you can adjust the bagginess at the luff by using the cunningham as well as, as Jim suggests, the outhaul. Unfortunately, some of that bagginees could simply be a factor of the sails age.

OK, 2 thoughts....

You might try usings some [url="http://www.mclube.com/frames/sailkote/"]sail lubricant [/url] on the slugs when hoisting. that can decrease the friction in the upper reaches of the mast slot. I'd use it every time you hoist for a while.

Dave's right, this is all minor stuff, you're sailing!

Edited by - John Russell on 05/19/2008 10:46:59

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 18:14:23

A simple alternative to the mast slot gates that keep the slugs from falling out is a "sail stop" like these...

I had the black cylinder type. It fits into the slot and can be tightened just above the gate. I used it to keep the gooseneck from dropping all the way down when I doused the sail.

The mast gates are good, however, especially for reefing, when you want a few slugs to drop as close to the boom as possible. The sail stop prevents that, which is not ideal.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/19/2008 18:16:29

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:02:25

The boom was resting on the outhaul cleat. Whoops.
OK somebody please tell me. My main halyard (green)runs down the front of my mast and can be tied to either side. I want to wrap it around my port mast winch and tie it to the cleat below. The jib halyard (red) runs down the back of the mast. It looks to me that if I run it down the starboard side of the mainsail in hopes of tying it off to the starboard mast cleat that it will cross the main halyard right at the top of the mast...almost seems like the two side-by-side pulleys in the mast head are backwards or something. Any thoughts? I could try it...but...
here's a better pic of the low boom problem

here's the closest I can get to the masthead.

here's what I did with my topping lift and outhaul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:40:57

Mainsheet to starboard, jib sheet to port. Uncleat that downhaul (between the gooseneck and the cleat in the mast track) before you raise the mainsail. Hoist the sail to the top, pull down on the boom, and cleat the downhaul.

The only time you might need a winch for the mainsheet is if you lead the sheet back to the cockpit via a block at the base of the mast and a "deck organizer" (horizontal block) on the cabintop. That's because in that case you'll want to leave the downhaul cleated, so you don't need to go on the cabintop to do it. Then you might want a winch on the cabintop to get the desired tension on the halyard to tension the luff of the sail. (I didn't feel I needed it.) But we don't know that you have that hardware.

Edited by - on

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:54:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Mainsheet to starboard, jib sheet to port. Uncleat that downhaul (between the gooseneck and the cleat in the mast track) before you raise the mainsail. Hoist the sail to the top, pull down on the boom, and cleat the downhaul.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Aye Aye. Thanks skipper.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The only time you might need a winch for the mainsheet is if you lead the sheet back to the cockpit via a block at the base of the mast and a "deck organizer" (horizontal block) on the cabintop. That's because in that case you'll want to leave the downhaul cleated, so you don't need to go on the cabintop to do it. Then you might want a winch on the cabintop to get the desired tension on the halyard to tension the luff of the sail. (I didn't feel I needed it.) But we don't know that you have that hardware.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No. She doesn't have any deck plates or hard ware to run the halyards back to the cockpit...I wish...any kind of auto-furler would be nice too.
So you use the winch then unwind the main halyard and try to keep the tension on it while you tie it to the starboard cleat?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:55:26

Completely unrelated issue but something you should think about.

Whe I first saw the photo of your mast with the line attached to the horn cleat on the starboard side, I thought that you had an awful lot of line wrapped around that cleat. But, that didn't contribute to the issues you were concerned about so I didn't mention it. Now that I see the cleat that you have the outhaul tied to I though it worth mentioning. It still doesn't have anything to do with your mains'l hoist however.

I think you should learn to tie a [url="http://www.animatedknots.com/cleat/index.php"]cleat hitch[/url]. It isn't just a cosmetic issue. A properly tied cleat hitch is a safety issue. That's why I mention it now. Having too much line wrapped around the main halyard cleat can be problematic in the event that you want to dump the sail in a hurry. On the other hand, should it slip loose when you need to keep the sail up you have other problems. A properly tied hitch is easily released. Random wraps around a cleat can lead to troubles.

More minor stuff.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 22:23:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Mainsheet to starboard, jib sheet to port. Uncleat that downhaul (between the gooseneck and the cleat in the mast track) before you raise the mainsail. Hoist the sail to the top, pull down on the boom, and cleat the downhaul.

The only time you might need a winch for the mainsheet is if you lead the sheet back to the cockpit via a block at the base of the mast and a "deck organizer" (horizontal block) on the cabintop. That's because in that case you'll want to leave the downhaul cleated, so you don't need to go on the cabintop to do it. Then you might want a winch on the cabintop to get the desired tension on the halyard to tension the luff of the sail. (I didn't feel I needed it.) But we don't know that you have that hardware.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Me thinks you're three sheets to the wind!

Edited by - dlucier on 05/19/2008 22:24:16

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 02:26:12

Edited by - Even Chance on 05/20/2008 02:29:27

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 07:35:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Mainsheet to starboard, jib sheet to port. Uncleat that downhaul (between the gooseneck and the cleat in the mast track) before you raise the mainsail. Hoist the sail to the top, pull down on the boom, and cleat the downhaul.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ummm. . . don't you mean halyard, not sheet?

That's what happens when you go over to the Dark Side, Dave.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whoops...I meant halyards....blushing

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 11:34:37

Peter,
An easy way to haul the main halyard those last several inches would be to put a half-wrap under the cleat and hold the tail under tension with one hand while grasping the halyard with the other hand and pull it away from the mast (toward you). Then ease off the latter hand as you pull up the slack from the cleat. Might take two tries at first. Harder to describe than to do it. As Dave says, the boom should lift as the head of the mainsail reaches the top of the track.

We all have overlooked the possibility of an obstruction at the top of the track. Hope that is not the case.

In your 5/19 post pix I see a line looped through the boomvang bail with a carabiner. What purpose?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 12:47:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Whoops...I meant halyards....blushing<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Me too... (Sheets, halyards, they all look alike!)

Peter: This isn't important here, but since you asked, when the halyard is led to back to a "stopper" or rope clutch on the cabintop at the cockpit, a winch can be placed aft of the stopper. The stopper is opened, the line though it is tensioned, and then the stopper is closed to hold it there.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/22/2008 12:49:24

knightwind
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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 22:05:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DanM
 Peter,
An easy way to haul the main halyard those last several inches would be to put a half-wrap under the cleat and hold the tail under tension with one hand while grasping the halyard with the other hand and pull it away from the mast (toward you). Then ease off the latter hand as you pull up the slack from the cleat. Might take two tries at first. Harder to describe than to do it. As Dave says, the boom should lift as the head of the mainsail reaches the top of the track.

We all have overlooked the possibility of an obstruction at the top of the track. Hope that is not the case.

In your 5/19 post pix I see a line looped through the boomvang bail with a carabiner. What purpose?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks. My boom wasn't loose before and the mainsail wasn't fully raised.
I finally figured out what the PO used that cheesy little blue carbiner for...to wedge the running end of the out haul into a poorly fitting clamp cleat...;o) It works for now...I have some 3/16 all purpose clothes line I was thinking of replacing the outhaul with...just so it fits in the clam cleat...but certainly wouldn't be as strong...
Is there a great deal of strain on a outhaul?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 23:23:33

Yes--there should be. No clothes lines allowed on a boat (except maybe to hold wet clothes)! They shrink, and they go POP!!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/22/2008 23:27:49

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 08:51:16

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