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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

New C-250 Rudder Aprroved

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2008 : 09:48:25

At our last Board meeting we overwhelmingly approved a new rudder design for the C-250 to improve #1 boat handling and #2 racing.
Blair's Wind and Wood Boats of Clarkston Washington has designed an new rudder that is longer, wider and just 5lbs heavier to improve the C-250 design. Randy Blair has locked the Price in at $825.00 plus shipping for the next year. He may be contacted at 509-758-0636 for more info. Look for an article in August mainsheet for all the details. We feel that this will be a great improvement for our C-250 members and safety always prevails. If someone could tell me how to post pictures I will put one on this posting.

Bill Meinert
Commodore
Sailing Longwind #1408

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 13:13:46

The Test forum explains how to post a photo. If you can tell me where a photo of this rudder exists on the Internet (or if you e-mail me a photo) I will post it for you.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 22:29:24

Bill forwarded this pic to me of the new rudder offering (the rudder on the right).

However, I do not know positively which 250 rudder it is compared to... I'm thinking the 1st generation blade rudder that was very inadequate for the 250. It is not the 3rd because it is not balanced and it looks too short for the 2nd.

Bill also sent a drawing showing the new offering to be 6'2" or about the same length as the 2nd generation Catalina rudder with of course the big difference that it is balanced and the 2nd wasn't. The 2nd did however have the lift needed for control so I'd expect this rudder offering to have adequate control.

The Catalina rudder in the pic almost certainly has to be the 1st generation.

For those who may not have followed the long line of rudder issues, there have been succeeding rudder offerings by Catalina and now after markets all trying to tame the helm on the 250. Basically it can be said that if one has a wing keel and the 3rd, it is doing a good job. The water ballast however gets a shorter version and it is inadequate for aggressive conditions.

The 2nd generation beaching remains a very very good rudder after some mods to the rudder head. The 2nd blade has control but offers helm fatigue. The 1st is generally inadequate for all but the most benign conditions.

The offering in the pic looks to be a high aspect ratio rudder with adequate depth and having balance should be a good offering with both control and reasonable effort.

The 250 can be demanding and require the best of a rudder and high aspect ratio rudders are less strong than the thick foiled shorter rudders Catalina is currently providing so at $800 I'd want some period of warranty. I raise this concern in part because the drawing outlines that the rudder is only 1/4 inch thicker than the evidently Catalina 1st and it was quite thin, much thinner than the 2nd and much much thinner than the 3rd. This leaves some question as the the strength of a high aspect ratio rudder with the length of this rudder.
That deep blade is going to manifest some serious strain. I'm not arguing however that some technology using carbon fiber or a metal backbone could not be employed and that the rudder isn't up to the task. We should also wait and see what the thickness difference between the three Catalina generations are. Only the 2nd however was considered a high aspect ratio rudder and there were some failures.

I'm not going to crawl around the garage tonight but I'll measure the thickness of the three Catalina rudder offerings so that someone will have the info to compare.

It is unfortunate that the owner of the Catalina rudder in the pic didn't get the news or take advantage of Catalina's attempt to get the rudder right. Catalina provided most 2nd generation upgrades at shipping cost of around $45. Later, they provided the 3rd generation at cost of around $300.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/23/2008 22:44:24

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2008 : 06:30:52

Arlyn, the new rudder is considerably different from our 2005 model.
Our back edge is almost vertical and the leading edge has a 2 step balaned format. Will take pics later today (and measure)

Paul

Edited by - on

NUTHRTOY
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 17:11:32

Here is a picture of an 1st generation rudder. It measures 13.25 at the widest point by 63.75 HIGH
Regards Carl Schroeder C250 #75

Edited by - NUTHRTOY on 05/27/2008 17:20:22

Wind and Wood Boats
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 00:38:35

Hi Arliyn. You had some specific thoughts about the rudder I designed and buildt for Mary's 1995 water ballast 250 with a stock generation one rudder. She brought her boat and rudder to my shop so I could see first hand what was causeing her problems while sailing her boat.As soon as I looked at her rudder I noticed a few problem areas. Luckily for me, there was a 2004 Catalina 250 wingkeel in my local marina, so I could see what Catalina had done over a nine year period to solve the rudder problems on the Catalina 250. The 2004 rudder was better, but still had some areas that could be improved on. So that is what I did,make some improvements on the 2004 rudder ( in my opion). If this post goes through ( not used to this forum yet ), I will discuss the vaccum-bagging process I use to make the rudders very strong and yet lite wieght.

Randy Blair
trijuanon@webtv.net

Edited by - on

Wind and Wood Boats
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 15:50:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 At our last Board meeting we overwhelmingly approved a new rudder design for the C-250 to improve #1 boat handling and #2 racing.
Blair's Wind and Wood Boats of Clarkston Washington has designed an new rudder that is longer, wider and just 5lbs heavier to improve the C-250 design. Randy Blair has locked the Price in at $825.00 plus shipping for the next year. He may be contacted at 509-758-0636 for more info. Look for an article in August mainsheet for all the details. We feel that this will be a great improvement for our C-250 members and safety always prevails. If someone could tell me how to post pictures I will put one on this posting.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 16:32:29

Randy, thank you for posting about this new rudder, it adds a lot to the discussion to have the designer onboard.

I hope you stick around.

Paul

Edited by - on

Wind and Wood Boats
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 17:14:49

Hi again Arlyn.The 2004 wingkeel rudder that I looked at was 1 5/8 of a inch thick and 70 inchs long. The rudder I made is 74 inchs long and allmost 2 inchs thick.I went with a more aggreasive air foil shape to improve the over all performance of the rudder.
Another change I made was to loose that double bend on the leading edge of the rudder where it goes under the bottom of the lower gudgeon and then forward and down again under the bottom of the boat. All that did was make it mandatory that you had to turn the rudder 90 degrees to the centerline of the boat to remove it. But you had to remove the tiller first to allow the rudder to turn that far. All you do now is remove the retainer clip and lift the rudder up off the gudgeons.
The rudder is made of multipe layers of 17 oz. biaxial fiberglass cloth and 3/4 oz. matt that is wet out with resin and placed in a female mold. There are over six layers of this in the high stress areas ( about a 1/4" thick ). The wet cloth and the mold is then placed in an air tight nylon bag that is hooked up to 3/4 horsepower vaccum pump. The pump sucks all the air out of the bag, that creates a vaccum in the bag, which generates fourteen pounds of preasure per square ince on the cloth and resin in the mold. This preasure fuses all the cloth into a sigle piece while the resin cures. The high preasure also squezes out any excess resin, in fact the 1/4" layers of cloth are now just 3/16" thick. All this results in a very strong, stiff and lite wieght rudder. The rudder is also filled with an expanding foam that is forced into expanding against itself multiple times. This results in a very dense and structural foam core that acts much like the web part of a steel I beam.
The rudders are then finished with a sprayable, teflon empregnated epoxy which is very slippery when wet.
Arlyn, if you or anyone else have any more questions, please contact me.
Randy Blair

Edited by - on

Sailinggrace
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 15:04:51

Hi Arlyn, I am the owner of the Catalina 250 - "Grace" with the new Blair Wind and Wood boat rudder. I absolutely love the way my boat sails with the new rudder. Back in Nov, I did call Catlaina about a replacement rudder for "Grace" as I had learned of the deal that had been available. Unfortunately I had not heard anything prior to last year and when I called, they said the deal was no longer available. I have owned my boat for about 7 years and really did not know that there were options on getting a new rudder. Chaulk that one up to being inexperienced. Over the years, my shoulders became an issue with sailing due to the weather helm that the original - 1st generation rudder- had and I set out to find a solution. After meeting up with Wes and Randy, they gave me some options and explained some upgrades that might help with the rudder and as a single handed sailor. The rudder history has been explained by Randy at Blair Wind and Wood Boats. Although I was able to sail "Grace" fairly well, with the upgrades for single handeling and the rudder...I have been able to gain knowledge and experience. The rudder specifically has drastically reduced the tension on my shoulders due to very little weather helm. "Grace" also sails better and I am more confident. On teh technical side, Randy explains it much better. Thanks for posting the new information on the rudder and approving it.

Edited by - on

Sailinggrace
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 15:08:28

Hi again - I would also like to try to get my name and owner information posted. I have paid my dues although there is nothing on the owners list that mentions me - sail #42 - list post also states that I am a deckhand rather than the owner of the boat - Anyway to get this issue addressed?
Thanks
Mary McCollum

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 16:08:47

Mary,

Welcome to the group. The "rank" under your login name only has to do with the number of postings made in the forum. It's not connected to sailing experience, knowledge, boat ownership or anything else. If it was, I should be a Deckhand forever.

Paul (a.k.a. Britinusa) volunteers his time and talents to update the owner's section periodically. He usually bundles the work and updates a number of things at once.

Again, welcome to the group

Edited by - John Russell on 05/29/2008 16:10:57

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2008 : 10:39:06

Hi Randy

Sorry my response has been slow. I've been off the net for about a week with problems with service. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the rudder and the process used to get the needed strength. I applaud your efforts and Mary certainly confirmed that those efforts solved her issues and there were certainly some issues with the Catalina 1st generation rudder.

I should add, Mary certainly would have struggled with the 2nd as it had the needed control but had no balance and required great strain at times.

If Catalina had supplied a 3rd generation rudder it would have been 8-10 inches shorter than the rudder you examined on the 2005 wing keel model and as you can imagine, would have been short on control for aggressive sailing conditions on the 250 wb. It seems to me that Catalina is thinking that a rudder that is short enough for launch and retrieve on the water ballast model is a priority over control needed for more aggressive sailing. And... I guess I've no problems with that sales philosophy... so I'm glad to see folks like you provide solutions for those who do desire to sail more aggressive waters.

Mary it seems has been the benefactor of a well designed offering from you, now having a high aspect ratio rudder with depth and balance and the strength to survive. I should explain that my concern was with the 1/4 inch thicker comment, that it was relative to the Catalina 1st generation whereas you clarified that it is actually 3/8 thicker than the Catalina 3rd generation. That clarification is huge and removes the concern I offered.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2008 : 10:57:23

Mary,

I'm very pleased that you found the answers to the helm issues with your 250 and that a good capable person in Randy provided the time and effort to listen, see what was needed and effect a positive result.

I add my welcome to the association. I've found it a great place over the years to get answers to 250 as well as sailing needs in general as well as to give back something in exchange.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2008 : 17:43:13

I know I for one need to balance my second generation beaching rudder as shown on Arlyn's site. My god that thing is tough to turn.

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Sailinggrace
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 18:17:01

Thanks to all for your words and encouragement...we will see how well "Grace" handles in the Payette Cup in McCall this weekend...first race of the year!!! She sailed very well 2 weekends ago in our tune up race although I am hoping for heavier winds to see the ease in which I can sail her. I am looking forward to trading experiences and adventures with all - more later
Mary
Skipper
"Grace"

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Sailinggrace
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 19:14:06

Just an update on the sailing ability of the Blair rudder..."Grace" raced through rain, sleet, snow and high winds this past weekend with no weather helm and no trouble at all on any direction. Downwind was a breeze as well. This new rudder is so easy and moveable in the water that I was able to concentrate on other racers, winds and weather coming down!!! If you looking for a new rudder...call Randy Blair...
Mary
Skipper "Grace"

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 20:51:41

Mary,
Welcome to the forum!
I'll probably offend all the Catholics on the forum, but I just gotta ask:
When people call you on the radio do they hail Grace full of Mary?

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:16:11

NO!!! They "Hail Mary Full of Grace".

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Sailinggrace
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 22:46:22

Hi there...actually only this summer have the comments begun about - "Hail Mary full of Grace"...kind of funny..although our lake is so small that we don't even use radios to communicate...name came from God's Grace...its been a great name and I have had fun with all the comments...plus I have a direct line to the big guy upstairs!!!
Mary
Skipper
"Grace"

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 15:10:12

I may be in the market for a new rudder soon. This rudder that Randy made isn't a beaching style is it? How do you remove it to put the boat on the trailer? I assume it can't be left in place can it? We don't intentionally beach the boat but ah well, I am not the best of skippers.

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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2008 : 08:48:49

I've been monitoring the rudder issue on this board since I got my '97 WK 2 years ago with what I believe is a second generation rudder. I've never had any problems until yesterday. With the 150 jib up the winds picked up to low or mid teens, gusty and shifty, and I ran out of rudder. Had it hard over and still rounded up. Now I understand the rudder issue.

If I could just get a handle on that extra weight in the bow idea I might have this boat figured out.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2008 : 12:02:47

Shortly after we commissioned Pretty penny II, we took her out on a blustery November day to find out what the newest rudder would handle. Winds were 15-20 out of the northeast and with all the canvas up we could get, full main and 135 jib, we could hold course until we hardened up and the boat reach 33 degrees of heel. At that point we ran out of rudder and up she came. I would also say at that time, being new to the 250, 33 looked like 55 do to the lack of visual reference at the water on the 250. On my 25 the problem did not exist so I had to relearn to watch the horizon for referencer as I did when flying. I will admit a nice artificial horizon would be nice, but way to many boat units.

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Wind and Wood Boats
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 14:28:58

The rudder I buildt for Marys' water ballast 250 is bigger and stronger, but yet weighs only five pounds more than her factory rudder.To remove the rudder, you just remove the keeper pin and lift the rudder up and off the gudgeons. In fact the rudder almost floats up and off by itself.
On the newer Catalina rudders ( 2004 and newer ) you have to turn the rudder 90 degrees to the centerline of the boat to pull the rudder up and off. To do that you have to remove the tiller from the rudder because the tiller hangs up on the stainless steel arch that it passes thruogh and that wil not let the tiller turn to ninety degrees. When Catalina decided to Balance thier newer rudders, they did not leave enough clearance between the bottom of the boat and the front part of the rudder that projects forward under the bottom of the boat. That is why you have to turn the rudder 90 degrees so that the balanced part will clear the bottom of the boat when you lift up on it. What I did was make more clearance between the bottom and the balanced part of the rudder. This allows the rudder to just be lifted straight up and off.
The new rudder is very easy to put on and off the boat.
If you have more questions, I will be happy to try and answer them.
Randy Blair

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
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