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Hit again while at anchor by a new bleach bottle!

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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 11:59:50

Sten,

Wow, see what I missed by working on my boat all weekend.
I'm kinda late to the discussion, but thank you for "Sharing".
I'm glad I can learn from other's experience, so I won't make the same mistakes.
I normally day sail, but it makes you think about topics outside of your normal venue.

Thanks, Russ

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 12:43:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...boat size creep ...you would think with the cost of things that the boat size would go down a bit... There are many that i guess can afford large boats whether they are sailboats or motorboats... horsepower creep on riding lawnmowers... gas barbecue grills... What gives ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Overcompensation for other "size" issues...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/02/2008 12:43:43

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 21:13:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'll be skipping any more of your posts.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have taken part of this forum since it began and before when it was on trailer sailor, and I have always found that if there is something you do not want to read to skip posts is the wise choice. It is far to easy to write something you may regret - I have! The strength of the forum is the diversity and experience that everyone can and should feel free to contribute. If you can't gain from what is being offered move on. $0.02

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 23:09:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 "If you don't wish to read my posts because you don't wanna know what I know, then don't. There are very few folks on this list that have learned from this site and repaid with time expended trying to educate, etc AFTER they moved on..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for trying to edumacate me.

If you don't have a proper cruising boat, you should be taken out back and shot because it is painfully obviously don't have a clue what you are doing and never will. So if you find that you've purchased a "bleach bottle", do everyone a favor, take it out to sea and scuttle it.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 05:34:09

Dave,

I guess in regards to boats it is hard to know what is "right-sized". First, there is the issue of intial cost and probably addl maintenance that increases as the boat size goes up (for a given year boat). Then there are other issues such as what size bathtub do you play in and are you mainly a daysailor or cruiser. In my neck of the woods, there was a guy I was talking to at my marina that bought a large cruising catamaran. But in our discussions it was apparent that he was having a hard time sailing in our area because his mast was so tall that he could not get under the main bridge which then limited his sailing to basically a 5 mile bathtub area. The Wilson Bridge does not open often....I am not even sure what if any schedule they have for opening it. Well, he eventually left our marina probably for a marina much further down the Potomac River. But last year they tore down the remains of the old bridge and the new Wilson Bridge now provides 5-10 feet more clearance underneath.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/03/2008 05:35:47

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 08:18:55

I see people of all walks on all sizes of boats and there generally is no difference in the stupidity or inexperience awarded to each. There are as many people with too much money and not enough experience as there are the inverse.

Everyone has a beginning and started at inexperience, we'll do well to remember that and look at those around us as humbly as possible.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:12:08

C'mon...Youknow (Jenneau) nothing owners, BendyToy owners, and other bleach bottle boats shouldn't be allowed to anchor next to real boats. I would be highly annoyed if I entered an anchorage and owners of these boats didn't immediately weigh anchor and leave.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:19:08

This is beginning to spiral downhill.

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:21:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would be highly annoyed if I entered an anchorage and owners of these boats didn't immediately weigh anchor and leave.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just start your generator and float it out on the dinghy, as suggested in another thread. That should get a few of them to move.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:28:16

gosh, stay away two days (taking care of a 2-yr and 5-yr-old while the admiral is out of town for a few weeks -12-, had to prioritize showering and dishes over y'all, please do not feel ignored

)...<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking My attitude, which generally stays consistent, MAY have been a bit more fired up than usual due to the fact that I had nearly experienced a crippling Deja Vu experience which would have required postponing our departure for who knows how long.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No quarrel there, dude, as I have posted before what's the point of living if you can't call idiots idiots? You happen to catch me in a transitional period (quoting Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction) trying to improve my karma by not directing my ire at "those people" and I thought I'd spread the enlightenment {insert "hysterically cackles at self" smilie}.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But I'll let you get awoken at 06:00 and unable to return to sleep on a Saturday morning AND a lay day - which means as a cruiser, we ain't moving - and see if you'll feel like pontificating your attitude to someone somewhere.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ironically the one incident I could relate in my post was about being woken up on a Saturday.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Finally, geez I'm glad my posts are generally entertaining and not considered offensive by most. I once read someone describe the list as a bunch of cranky old guys. I'm glad I qualify.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I am mellowing out at 47, what's wrong (yes, this is mellowed out

). Plus you really wanna be all entertaining and no offensive? I would think you would be bored if we all agreed with you

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:45:07

Speaking of which,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
A lot has changed and now people are buying way more vessel than they belong in.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's a guy in Sailnet, his previous experience being skiffs, asking advice on a Hunter 54.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
All kidding aside, there are some people that actually need bigger ......I would also learn how to handle it!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I am starting to admit we cannot fit in a C25 with 2 kids (yes others do; we go car-camping for a weekend and have to use the roof-rack on the land rover and I am not fighting it anymore) but I also cannot claim I have learned enough to move on yet (I have the blogs to prove it too

). So a few more years at least...

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:47:15

I had the pleasure of meeting Sten and Steph at Solomon's Island, before they moved on, and found them very generous, knowledgeable and personable. On the forum, Sten expresses his opinions firmly, but that's undoubtedly because he has given them a lot of thought, and hasn't reached them lightly. Many of us are equally firm in our opinions. He has a lot of good advice to offer, and is an interesting story-teller.

From what I've seen, most sailors denigrate production boats (especially Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus and MacGregors). I don't agree with that. I think those boats sell large numbers of boats because they produce a good product for which there is a strong demand in the marketplace. They sail reasonably well, provide pleasant accommodations, and are safe for the purposes for which they were designed, and they are attractively priced. In the absence of such boats, many of us wouldn't be able to afford to sail. We don't all need or want a Sabre or Swan or Island Packet, and we can't all afford them. For most of us, a coastal cruiser will serve our needs wonderfully.

I agree with Ray that we should take the valuable information we can glean from each participant in the forum, and, if you hear something that isn't to your liking, either express your own opinion in a way that will make your mother proud, or ignore it.

Life is too short to squabble over small stuff.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:55:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 This is beginning to spiral downhill.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

I'm not being serious.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 10:48:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 From what I've seen, most sailors denigrate production boats (especially Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus and MacGregors).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Throw in some O'Day's and other similar boats, and you pretty much have the sailboat makeup of my marina. If the cruising life entails looking down one's nose at other boats and the people who sail them, then I want no part of it.

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 11:35:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From what I've seen, most sailors denigrate production boats (especially Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus and MacGregors). <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think it is interesting to see what boats are being actively used and sailed on a regular basis, and there is your list, pretty much in that order except we don't see a lot of Beneteaus in this area. I am just simply amazed at the huge array of sailboats setting at our marina and the others up and down the river that hardly ever get used. Beautiful boats that the owners have spent 10s of thousands on every possible option and electronic gadget.(do you really need radar on a Cape Dory 24 that never leaves the dock?)

On any given day by far the highest percentage of boats out on the Columbia river in Portland, Oregon are Catalina's, from Capri 22s to Catalina 38s. You will almost always see a Cal 20 or two, a Ranger 20, a J24 and a Merit 24. If there is a class race going on then you will see little fleets of those, but as far as people just out cruising around Catalina's, in all different sizes, are what you will see the most of.

So if you don't like my bleach bottle bumping into you, get your fancy smancy blue water cruising boat out of my moorage and out in the deep blue sea where I won't be.

Edited by - 1981capri on 06/03/2008 11:44:10

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 11:38:39

I wish to state my opinion about skippering sailboats, and you know what they say about opinions ... I think sailors should be required to learn to sail dinghies before they are allowed to sail larger boats. My observation is that those who can sail a dinghy can easily handle a larger sailboat, but the reverse is not true. I would like to think a license to handle a boat should be required, but I have problems with imposing laws on sailboats, so maybe only require a license to handle any watercraft that can exceed 20kts. I know where I live sailing would be a lot more safe and fun if this were the case.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 11:44:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Dave,

I'm not being serious.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You had me worried Don I thought you were throwing gas on the fire. I should have known better!

BTW - Don you are in the Port Clinton Neighborhood aren't you?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From what I've seen, most sailors denigrate production boats (especially Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus and MacGregors). I don't agree with that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Me either Steve, as you know, we are all sailboat owners and should stay cohesive as such.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 12:04:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ray Seitz
 BTW - Don you are in the Port Clinton Neighborhood aren't you? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, the NW corner of Lake Erie near the Detroit Light.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 13:06:14

Maybe we can all (or mostly) agree that:

1. Most knowledgeable, experienced, long-distance cruisers prefer a blue-water-designed boat, even if an older one, for passagemaking. CatBenHunt is not one of those boats.

2. The large majority of sailors never do off-shore passagemaking. CatBenHunt makes boats for them that are good values, good inshore performers, comfortable, and safe for their intended use. Most of these sailors need a true blue-water boat like I need a DC-9.

3. The two groups above often have limited contact with one another, may not fully appreciate each others' interests and needs, and therefore may be a bit disdainful/defensive about their choices. Sten has transitioned from one group to the other and stayed in contact with his "roots" (us)... There is value to the rest of us in being reminded that there are basics we should learn, practice, learn some more, and teach to our colleagues, even if we sail CatBenHunts inshore. Anchoring is just one of them.

Meanwhile, I'll stay in touch with the $+!nkp*+ perspective.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 14:17:35

As usual, well said Dave.

I think we all recognize that it's the skipper, not the actual boat that's the problem.

Edited by - on

SteveRoberts
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:49:12

'81capri, I'd be interested in chatting with you about sailing on the Columbia. Would you mind emailing me at stever(ignore this)77(at-sign)comcast(dot)net? Ignore or replace the parts in the parentheses as instructed.

And, BTW, I need a DC9.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 21:08:11

Are you ready to fill it up??

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 07:40:45

Love the fire in the belly people! While I was getting hammered rounding Cape May with serious storms approaching, I thought about how sensitive some owners are to comments I made. OK, so I am not going to suggest you scuttle any vessel. I only know that not all vessels are properly prepared for some of the stuff we have done and some of the stuff we wanna do.

ilnadi - comparing being in your home port at a dock and being struck is not the same as being struck in a foreign port on your "HOME." That being said, I do understand the parallel.

I think Dave said it right, I have transitioned to the other side and my views are a product of my environment and a reflection of views expressed by many of my peers. But not all of that is a bad thing as noted.

We met a guy who left Arizona, flew to Deltaville and bought a Beneteau 35. www.skippermarc.com He thought he was going to circumnavigate with that boat. Believe it or not I "gently" tried to suggest that perhaps he needed to beef it up. Another cruiser and good friend walked in and just flatly told him NO - ain't gonna happen. This poor guy was stuck at a dock because he only had the 15 feet of chain still and was paying 2 bucks a foot a day for that privilege. We adopted him and kinda steered him in a better direction equipment wise and he did acknowledge that perhaps he needed to learn some stuff and then upgrade to a firmer boat before trying to go around. He signed on to a catamaran headed for the south pacific and has his boat hauled. (Unfortunately the canal is on a work slowage - striking is illegal - so there is a serious delay for cruisers going through the ditch. Marc came back to his vessel.) Anyway, while his boat was hauled we had an opportunity to look at her bottom. I was shocked to see that the wing keel was 8 -9 inches higher than her rudder. This means that if he ran aground hard, it might be possible that the rudder would be torn out and she could take on water and sink.

What were the builders thinking? Yes, they do win a lot of races 'cuz they are designed for that purpose primarily. But even still. When you see something like that - you quickly form an opinion about the boat builder.

So I think Dave nailed my core point - catBenHunt's are great for their designed purpose and yes for 99% of all sailors that is enough boat. My friend Marc did not have any experience with sailboats or even with sailing and just assumed that he had a cool boat. He does, but the vast open cockpit could injure someone in a storm, the large windows could break in heavy seas, and the shoe string rigging would keep me up at night even in calm conditions offshore. I refused to help him deliver it directly offshore to Newport from St. Augustine for those reasons and he agreed. But again, as expressed by Steve Milby, my opinions are based on some real world experience in "My" new world.

For the record - I think of the bunch (CatBenHunt) I would definately go for a Catalina. Probably the 42 MKII for offshore work and perhaps a crossing. But as noted by others, I am disappointed that these builders focus on below decks rather that topsides... 'Tis what it is...

So, for anyone offended at my bleach bottle description - I humbly apologize. Your C25 or C250 was not the subject of my rant. Your boats would cause little anxiety if anchored near me. You might scratch my paint, but you can't ruin my "home." A C470 is a monster of a boat when headed directly towards you and my original point is that the builders are selling dreams, read floating condos, to folks who have neither the skill nor the experience to handle these massive boats. Sorry that got cluttered in my angst.

BTW - my wife and I were able to spend some time with Lysistrata's previous owner who has circled the globe with her twice and lived on her for 22 years. We regailed him with our stories only to be shocked by his Level 5 versions. GET THIS! Lysistrata was struck at anchor many years ago by a Beneteau on a mooring ball! Just how is that possible when the distance between the anchorage and mooring field was so far apart? The boat was a charter vessel and the guy started the engine to charge the batteries and went down below for a nap. He forgot that the engine was in forward, so while the engine slowly idled in forward, he napped until the inevitable happened. He slipped the cleat and he was off to the races. It wasn't until he hit Lysistrata that he woke up. (This is why it is important to always tie some cordage over your cleats when on a ball.) Stuff happens.

We are off to Newport on the outside - sorry Dave, my wife has a ticket to kansas in a week and going inside LI sound just isn't a viable option unless weather deteriorates.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Cape May NJ

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:17:47

Sten, I'm guessing you'll be passing Montauk tomorrow as I'm heading down the Ho Chi Minh Trail to Western CT... Otherwise I might have cruised out there to say hi somewhere between Montauk and Block Island. Too bad the wind is on your nose today.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:56:00

Ah, Dave - The Admiral and governess of weather has declared tommorow a better idea as we won't have to beat. This unfortunately means that the weather offshore near Montauk will be rough by the time we get there - possibly... We have to do better than 125 mile days to work it all out without rough seas. www.passageweather.com Further than 20 NM offshore the seas are higher and building. So a trip outside involves a few more miles staying within that line. Also, the gulf stream is doing some funny stuff right now according to our weather guru Herb. http://www3.sympatico.ca/hehilgen/vax498.htm

SO, we are leaving first AM now headed fro Sandy Point and from there we are now going on the inside- LI sound here we come... I don't mind bashing personally, but since it is nearing the time for my wife to decide to sign on for another year, I will defer to a smoother ride and we'll still make good time, hopefully.. Doesn't matter - her flight is in a week and wherever we are she'll just have to get a car and get to Boston Logan and I'll solo the rest of the way.

So we'll login hopefully as we are going thru NYC and I'll get you an update. Otherwise SV Lysistrata is ALWAYS standing by channel One-Six.

sten out

Edited by - on

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