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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Small World Department -- Surveyors

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2008 : 20:36:59

So . . . I had posted seeking a surveyor. I also was looking anywhere and everywhere I could to find a "local" surveyor who would do a "small" job. (in my neck of the woods it seems under 40' "yachts" are only done off season!) The trail led me to a guy in my neighboring town named Bill Stadel and a most wonderful "small world" encounter. It turns out that Bill had worked many, many years ago at the same boatyard I had worked when I was a teen (we're talking late 60's early 70's here) We knew the same people, shared yarns of days past and figured we missed working together by @5 years. Bill is also the son of the naval architect who designed, among others, the Greenwich 24 - which morphed into the Cape Dory 25. Again, as in my past I have owned/sailed Alberg/Coble/Stadel boats it was great to chat about full keel boats, friends, mutual experiences. As he said at the end -- it's amazing how small a community the sailing world can be -- I agree -- and cherish this, and similar such relations.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2008 : 12:13:40

Those encounters are fun! I've had some mind-blowing "small world" events, including meeting a woman in CT who slept in my bedroom in IL up until her parents sold their house to my parents in 1951...

Before we bought our C-25 (while living in Darien), I looked at a Cape Dory 25 in Norwalk--it was cute, but clearly wasn't drawn by Carl Alberg like the other CDs. I had expected it to look like Alberg's CD-25D, but it was very different. Later I found out a little more about its lineage, but I didn't know its designer was in the neighborhood.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 09:08:07

Quote: "Bill is also the son of the naval architect who designed, among others, the Greenwich 24 - which morphed into the Cape Dory 25. Again, as in my past I have owned/sailed Alberg/Coble/Stadel boats it was great to chat about full keel boats"

A page from the book of well found vessels in history. It's amazing to me that the full keel has all but disappeared for small boats. Pacific Seacraft's "Flicka" 20 was perhaps the last of the small full keel boats?

sten

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 13:05:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's amazing to me that the full keel has all but disappeared for small boats.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">For small boats, I guess performance counts for more than tracking in large following seas. Traditional full keels have less lift, more drag, and less righting moment per pound, and keel-hung rudders aren't as efficient. As much as I loved the Cape Dory 26 we looked at (very different from the 25, but also full keel), I concluded that it'd be almost impossible to back into the slip we were able to get. The full keel, keel-hung rudder, and limited turning ability of the outboard in the lazarette made backing to starboard almost impossible--it would only back straight or slightly to port. It was a sad realization and a hard decision.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:09:19

Actually, I guess the full keel is disapearing period for performance reasons... cape Dory 26 would be a tough decision to swallow.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Cape May, NJ

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:31:50

Ya, I suspect that if we'd bought her then, I'd still have her now--I doubt that I could've let her go.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:59:58

Over the past couple of years I have had conversations with folks researching the viability of "re"introducing some Alberg designs. I was offered the original mods from the Typhoon and another guy was looking at making molds for the Sea Sprite 23. In the later case it was determined that there were too many well built Sea Sprites/CD's/Pearsons?Bristols to compete with so economics would not work out. In the former case, despite the price being free, I could not find anyone who was interested in making Typhoons because . . . too many on the used market. My guess -- and only a wishful guess -- is in 25-50 years Alberg type, full keel designs will be "rediscovered" much like Nat Herreshoff designs or inspired designs are made now on a limited basis.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 13:21:29

Peter--having molds is a start, but those boats need a lot of teak joinery inside and out (such as rub rails and coamings), and custom bronze hardware to reproduce. I suspect the Typhoon would need to be priced at $50-75,000, and the CD-25D would probably have to sell in the $125-150,000 range--maybe more. The bigger models might fit into their market better, but I think Robinhood already has them.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 16:50:24

Dave: The guy thinking about the Sea Sprite 23 was shooting for $35k-$50k -- depending on options. The Typhoon molds were at a boat builder who said that $25k was the market target -- and while he could make it to sell at that price, not with sufficient profit, to effectively market it, etc. And those conversations were in '05 and '06 before oil took off!. While I have the mfg space I do not have the skilled workforce for the molding, joinery, etc., which is another story. Meanwhile there is an established full keel sail boat mfg in New Hampshire looking for investors because there is not enough market to get real production volumes up to where he can make it on current cash-flow. The more time I spent looking at the numbers the more impressed I am with Butler and how he made Catalina the company it is!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 18:47:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 The more time I spent looking at the numbers the more impressed I am with Butler and how he made Catalina the company it is!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...partly by getting out of the teak ("brown gold") business, and by buying standard components. A nicely trimmed out 15' Bullseye was selling (new) for $35000 last year--thus my estimate for the larger Typhoon. If you have the molds, the building of boats like that doesn't have much economy of scale--it costs about 5 times as much to build 50 boats as to build 10. If you do it, you need to center your marketing around someplace like Cape Cod or Boothbay--not Norwalk.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 21:55:46

Agreed!

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