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Mast Wiring Problem

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/02/2008 : 22:48:48

OK, I installed all new wiring in my mast and replaced both the steaming/deck light and masthead fixtures. I tested each light using the new wiring in the mast with a hot and ground wire direct from the battery before raising the mast. Everything seemed to work properly so I buttoned up everything and raised the mast.

Today I went to finish up wiring the deck fitting and the end of the mast wire. I could get the steaming light to work but not the deck light or masthead light. I tried every combination of wiring I could think of to no avail. I can get power to each wire in the deck fitting but the lights are not working properly.

I did not replace the wiring from the panel to the deck fitting but I can get power to each wire in the deck fitting. The lights just will not work properly. Part of the problem is that the wiring harness from the panel to the deck fitting has three (3) red wires and one (1) yellow which makes it confusing up at the deck fitting unless you have the power on to only one switch at a time. According to the wiring harness I'm supposed to have a yellow, white orange, and green which I obviously don't have.

At the lower end of the mast I have red, white, black, and green wires going into the plug. There are a black and a white wire only going to the masthead and the steaming/decklight fixture has black, white, and green wires. When I wired the new fixtures I used the old ones as a reference.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 06/02/2008 22:51:54

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 08:33:38

It sounds like your boat has been modified by a previous owner. It sounds like you have one ground (yellow) and three hot (red) wires. I'd turn the switches on the control panel on, one at a time, and test the connections pair-wise until you can figure out which hot wire goes to which light.

I assume you already know which wire goes to which light on the mast, but if you don't know that, you can test that pairwise using a 9-volt battery (like the one you use in a smoke detector).

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 08:48:15

Catalina does not have a clue about color coded wire.

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

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USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:35:54

I does sound like the PO changed things, and with four wires now, he probably changed the plug and socket, but what kind of shape ore they in? I figured out that mine were shot, when I had the same problem with my existing wiring. I had power at the deck socket, and the lights in the mast both worked when I hooked them up to a battery, but they would not work when I plugged in the mast to the deck. My mast plug and deck socket were original, and I finally determined that the socket was so old and corroded that the pins of the plug didn't touch the sockets. I replaced both plug and socket and that fixed it.

Paul

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:17:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Baker
 It sounds like your boat has been modified by a previous owner. It sounds like you have one ground (yellow) and three hot (red) wires. I'd turn the switches on the control panel on, one at a time, and test the connections pair-wise until you can figure out which hot wire goes to which light.

I assume you already know which wire goes to which light on the mast, but if you don't know that, you can test that pairwise using a 9-volt battery (like the one you use in a smoke detector).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bruce,

I did turn one switch on at a time and that was how I was able to get even close on the wiring. I got the steaming light to work but that was it. It might not make that much difference in that I doubt seriously if I will ever use the anchor light anyway.

Still, it's driving me crazy that I cannot get all of the lights to work. I only had about 2 hours to work on them last night before it got dark so I will continue this weekend.

The one set of black and whote wires goes to the masthead light and another set of black and white go to the deck/steaming light along with a green.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:50:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by farrison
 I does sound like the PO changed things, and with four wires now, he probably changed the plug and socket, but what kind of shape ore they in? I figured out that mine were shot, when I had the same problem with my existing wiring. I had power at the deck socket, and the lights in the mast both worked when I hooked them up to a battery, but they would not work when I plugged in the mast to the deck. My mast plug and deck socket were original, and I finally determined that the socket was so old and corroded that the pins of the plug didn't touch the sockets. I replaced both plug and socket and that fixed it.

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul,

The deck socket and mast plug appear to be original although I have no way of knowing for sure. Both appear to be in very good condition with no corrosion evident.

At one point last night I had all four wires connected on both the plug and socket and the steaming light came on using the plug. I just couldn't get the others to work so I think the plug and socket are OK.

I also tried just hooking up the wires without the plug and socket and got the same results.

When I got home last night I sat down with the wiring schematic and I'm not sure my ground is hooked up correctly at the panel. The schematic shows the running lights and the mast lights have different ground wires so it's possible that this could be my problem. I'm planning on going down to the boat again late tomorrow afternoon to see if I can get make some headway.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/03/2008 16:51:08

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 17:14:43

If all 3 red wires are hot, and yellow is indeed ground, make sure yellow is attached to the ground connection coming from the mast. connect the mast wiring to the deck, and turn all of your switches on. If everything comes on, turn the switches off one at a time and see which light goes out. Relabel the switch, if necessary.
Can't help you beyond that!

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5429 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 22:40:15

It might be a little late at this point, but whenever I encounter multiple wires of the same color, I get yellow, black, blue and green electrical tape and mark both ends of the wire. To measure continuity, I use a Digital Voltmeter set for 1 - 10 Ohms and run a "return" wire, just to measure the wire in question.

When I identify both ends (0-1 Ohm) I mark both ends with yellow tape on wire 1, black on 2, blue on 3, and so on. If I run out of colors, then I mark the wires with pairs (yellow and black, yellow and blue, yellow and green, etc)

At this point, I create a wiring diagram with color codes (yellow goes to masthead light, black goes to bow light, blue goes to the deck lights, etc, and the "return" line connects all lights back to the negative side of the circuit.

Since your wires change color between the mast and deck socket, my schematic would indicate that the yellow connects to red below decks, the black connects to green, the blue connects to white, etc, so I can trace out the circuit from the switch panel through the deck socket to the mast, bow or deck lights, then on the return to the negative side (or ground).

Keeping it all straight is the challenge, but organization and documentation help out a great deal.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 13:23:45

Bruce,

Because I was able to turn on the individual switches one at a time I was able to determine which wire was connected to which switch. I put the positive lead from the voltmeter onto the end of each wire one at a time while holding the negative lead to the base of the mast for ground. When I got a reading on a wire I knew I had located the steaming light or whatever switch was on at the time. By comparing that wire to the schematic I knew which pin to connect to in the deck plug.

The only wire I was not ever able to get a reading on was the yellow wire and I figured that was because it was the ground.

Once I got all the wires figured out I had planned on doing something similar to what you suggested.

I think my problem is either the ground is not connected to the panel in the proper place or is not separated from the running lights as required OR something in the mast is wired wrong.

My biggest problem was that I ran out of daylight before I could finish troubleshooting. I'm hoping to take off Friday so I will have all day to work on it if needed.

Luckily, I haven't finished putting the boom back on and tuning the mast so if I have to I will drop the mast again until I can get the bugs worked out.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 13:32:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 If all 3 red wires are hot, and yellow is indeed ground, make sure yellow is attached to the ground connection coming from the mast. connect the mast wiring to the deck, and turn all of your switches on. If everything comes on, turn the switches off one at a time and see which light goes out. Relabel the switch, if necessary.
Can't help you beyond that!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
David,

I think there is a good possibility that this could be at least part of my problem. I plan on checking that the ground is separate from the running lights ground when I get to go back down to the boat (hopefully Friday)!

Just to be sure I'm on the same page, does the mast ground wire attach to the mast base somewhere or were you referring to the ground pin in the deck socket?

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 19:20:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Because I was able to turn on the individual switches one at a time I was able to determine which wire was connected to which switch. I put the positive lead from the voltmeter onto the end of each wire one at a time while holding the negative lead to the base of the mast for ground. When I got a reading on a wire I knew I had located the steaming light or whatever switch was on at the time. By comparing that wire to the schematic I knew which pin to connect to in the deck plug.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your mast base should not be a ground. Electrical grounds in boats all eventually run to battery negative. Even inboards engines have a ground lug were all grounds meet including the battery. For this reason I do not understand how the base of your mast provided a ground for your power wire. You should fine the ground for your panel to the battery and then insure all other grounds go to this point. Some have installed a grounding block were the battery ground hooks then all other grounds go to connect on that block.
If in fact the yellow is ground from your panel put your black lead in that deck plug hole, then turn on a switch for any light and put your red lead in each hole until you find the one reading 12 volts. Draw a picture of the deck connector with the "V" being your starting point and then count from that to the hole that gives power an write down what light switch controls it. Then continue identifying the rest of the lights. Once you identify the boat operation or problem then you proceed to the mast. Trying to do both at the same time will only give you a big headache.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 19:34:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Because I was able to turn on the individual switches one at a time I was able to determine which wire was connected to which switch. I put the positive lead from the voltmeter onto the end of each wire one at a time while holding the negative lead to the base of the mast for ground. When I got a reading on a wire I knew I had located the steaming light or whatever switch was on at the time. By comparing that wire to the schematic I knew which pin to connect to in the deck plug.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your mast base should not be a ground. Electrical grounds in boats all eventually run to battery negative. For this reason I do not understand how the base of your mast provided a ground for your power wire.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frog,

That's what I was thinking but I could not get a reading on any of the other pins in the deck connector unless I touched the mast base or later on from the pin with the yellow wire. I was surprised when I got a ground from the mast plate.

The whole wiring harness in this boat is questionable. The running lights are connected to wire that looks like the wiring harness for your boat trailer and just lays in the bottom of the boat (at least for the stern light)

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 09:05:52

If you can get readings with the black lead (-) in the hole with the yellow wire then your ground is fine. As for the wire to the stern light, isn't the electrical panel for the 89 on the step under the stairs, if so then the stern light on the floor makes sense back and up to the stern light. Sense the mast is down I would spend my time fixing the wiring in it. I would also take the mast foot plate out and try and fine out were the wires are connected in the mast. You might fine the PO did ground the lights to the mast and therefore the reason only the steaming light is working correctly, sense it is the only one grounded back to the battery.

Edited by - frog0911 on 06/05/2008 09:09:32

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 11:46:57

Frog,

If I hold the black lead to the mast plate and insert the red lead in any of the pins on the deck socket EXCEPT the ground pin I get a reading. When I insert the red lead into the ground pin in the deck socket I don't get anything which is why I thought it was the ground.

The panel is under the step and I understand that it's no big deal that that wire is laying in the bilge. The same wire (which looks light trailer light wiring) also runs up to the bow fixture.

The mast is not currently down. I had it down last weekend when I installed the new wiring harness from CD. I know I wired the lights the same as they were because when I removed the old fixtures I left a pigtail of the old wire hanging off each attach point.

AS I mentioned before, I'm just going to have to go back down to the boat and continue to troubleshoot. I only had about an hour and half before it got dark the other day. I'm planning on going back down late this afternoon and again all day tomorrow if needed to work on it.

First thing I will do is hook up the 9 volt battery as Bruce Baker suggested to each of the mast wire pairs so I can figure out which wires in the mast go to which lights.

As a last resort I'll drop the mast again tomorrow!

I'll let you know what I figure out.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2008 : 11:14:35

Success! After spending an hour studying the wiring harness mess to figure out which wires wewnt where I was able to determine that the yellow was not the ground as I previously thought. Turns out one of the red wires had a black stripe on it and that was the ground.

Finally knowing for sure which wire was ground made the rest easy. Turned on each switch in succession and followed the wiring diagram and everything worked.

The only thing that doesn't seem quite right was when I first hooked everything up I could get all of the mast lights to come on at the same time. After re-mounting the deck socket to the deck the anchor light would not come on unless I turned all of the other mast lights off. I double checked that I was getting power thru the deck connector and into the mast wiring harness. I did notice that when the anchor light was on and everything else was off, the deck light was glowing very, very dimly so I'm wondering if there is a weak ground somewhere.

I also noticed on the back of my switch panel that there appears to be no ground wire connected to the ground side of the switches. Shouldn't there be a ground wire attached to the ground side of the switch panel? The red wire with black stripe for the mast lights I mentioned above goes directly from the grounding bar to the deck socket.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2008 : 16:56:58

GaryB,
You're in luck with all hese guys helping out!

I put all new wiring from the panel to the deck and then put a new wiring harness up the mast. My switch panel is grounded & everything worked after the challenges with the mast and the wiring!

You're close to success now!

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 10:00:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Shouldn't there be a ground wire attached to the ground side of the switch panel?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The switches should not have a positive and ground wire attached. The positive voltage goes through the switch and the switch acts as a cutoff. Usually the ground wire goes directly from the negative side of the device being powered to a buss bar connected to the negative side of the battery. You are confusing your DC switches with household AC switches which can have both positive and ground.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 12:59:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Shouldn't there be a ground wire attached to the ground side of the switch panel?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The switches should not have a positive and ground wire attached. The positive voltage goes through the switch and the switch acts as a cutoff. Usually the ground wire goes directly from the negative side of the device being powered to a buss bar connected to the negative side of the battery. You are confusing your DC switches with household AC switches which can have both positive and ground.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you Joe! What you say makes sense. In my case the red wire with black stripe(ground)goes from the negative buss bar which IS connected the negative post on the battery up the mast to the ground side of each fixture. The other three wires going up the mast go from the respective light switches to the positive side of each fixture.

So if I understand all of this the circuit is completed through the battery (positive side up through the fixture and then negative down from the fixture through the buss bar and back to the battery).

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 12:10:33

Ok, I got all the lights working but I have one more question now.

If I turn on the anchor light only it works correctly. If I turn on the running lights or steaming light the anchor light goes out. Is that normal?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 12:58:52

Boats should never have 12 volt negative tied to a chassis "ground". This would cause electric corrosion. Boats do have all dissimilar metals wired together and attached to a zinc. This is called the bonding system. You will see real boats with wires from the engine block, shaft, all through hulls, etc. wired together. The bonding system should never be connected to the battery. The Catalina 25 does not have a bonding system.

Never use a "chassis ground" on a boat or mast. Run wires for all positive and negative connections.

Edited by - on

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