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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Making the jump to 4 stroke

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/22/2008 : 23:39:58

The starter failed on my good old Johnson (no jokes, I'm old enough to know what Cialis is), and pull starting (still no jokes) on a Cat with a very sensitive choke setting is no fun. In fact, when the starter got intermittent I started just flipping off the cover and a shot of ether before pull starting - it is easier to set the choke when the engine fires. I also solved the tendency to die as I pulled into the slip by actually looking up the proper sparkplug instead of just replacing what was there. Most Johnsons use the same plug, but the 9.9 uses a different one. Somebody in a shop probably tuned it up and put in the standard Johnson plugs and they have been replaced ever since, just like I did last year. The plugs were loading up on extensive idle causing the engine to misfire and die, fate just made it happen at a very inconvenient time. Anyway, with the hotter plugs the engine has been fine until the starter became unreliable. I'll tear into it and see if it is the starter or the switch; it is usually the starter brushes, but it acted more like a failed switch. Anyway, I'll fix it and have a 9.9 XLS Sailmaster for sale when I find out what its worth.

Back to the subject. The admiral suggested that rather than repairing this motor, maybe it was time for a quiet and fuel efficient 4 stroke! I have always thought one of the better ideas in outboard controls was Mercury's throttle shift linkage (turn one way to go forward, turn the other to reverse), but the Tohatsu price was hard to ignore. Armed with the price from Onlineoutboards, I went to West Marine to compare. The manager said that that was an amazing price and I should jump on it unless I really wanted the Mercury. He said he couldn't match the Tohatsu's price, but he came up with a pretty amazing price for the Mercury but he won't know if he can get it until Monday. The admiral said that for as long as these motors seem to last, that really isn't much difference and I agree. He will call me Monday with the answer, so I will confirm it then or order the Tohatsu on Tuesday.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:43:06

Those mercury outboards sound nice with that throttle/shift. If you go Tohatsu remember that members of the C25/250 Association get an additional discount. It is in the Members section of the site.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 06:53:54

Several people I know with the Mercurys do not like them. They say the inability to rev the engine in neutral bothers them.

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Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 07:08:45

There are many threads on this subject in the archives -- debates about who makes the more preferable motor. My consistent refrain is to buy from a local dealer who can service your motor (which I don't think West Marine can). One repair bill can erase whatever savings you make buying from a non-local dealer. Other than that, there's not a lot of quality difference between engine makers. Get the best combination of price, features, and service.

And, the Mercurys ARE Tohatsus. There is no small outboard built in the U.S.

Edited by - Even Chance on 06/23/2008 07:10:36

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 09:13:28

True, the power heads and bottom ends are all Tohatsu, only the features, conveniences, and style are built by Tohatsu to the manufacturer's specs. I don't have brand loyalties in outboards, they are all good, hence my limitation to either Mercury or Tohatsu.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 11:51:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One repair bill can erase whatever savings you make buying from a non-local dealer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please explain. Why wouldn't the local dealer do the warranty work on the motor even if you bought it elsewhere?

We bought a car through a service from our credit union once. The car came in from another state and friends said "What will you do if it has warranty problems?" Well, I took it to the local dealer and they did the work and were glad to have a new customer for their service center.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 13:39:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Please explain. Why wouldn't the local dealer do the warranty work on the motor even if you bought it elsewhere?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know Honda dealers are happy to do it--they say Honda compensates them quickly and well for warranty work. But if a dealer can't sell any units, he won't be an "authorized service center" for long. Ever wonder what happened to your local hardware store? Home Dopey. If you want local support, support local businesses.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:04:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I have always thought one of the better ideas in outboard controls was Mercury's throttle shift linkage (turn one way to go forward, turn the other to reverse),...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ain't that the truth! The integrated throttle/shifter is slicker than frog's hair. Why the other manufacturers haven't copied this idea boggles my mind.

I have a '95 Merc 2 stroke that I've been using for going on 6 years now. This outboard starts on the first pull (actually, half a pull) almost every time, purrs like a kitten, and is relatively quiet compared to my neighbors old Johnson which kind of sounds like a small Harley. While it was idling one day, my dock neightbor commented on how quiet my outboard was and asked if it was a 4 stroke.

Anyway, with all things being equal with outboards, if I had to replace my 2 stroke Merc with its intergrate throttle/shifter, I'd need to save some big dineros to opt for an outboard that feature. And even then I probably wouldn't do it.

Frank - Why the need to rev the throttle in neutral? Although both my old Johnson and my Merc can be rev'd in neutral by manually actuating the throttle linkage, the "no rev in neutral" design prevents less than knowledgeable owners from damaging their outboards through over revving without a load.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 18:10:21

Regardless of what you choose, you will love the 4 stroke-except for the weight!

Steve A

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 20:11:05

buy locally.

and, aren't Honda OB's still made in the US? My 1999 9.9 was made in the US.

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Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 03:48:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 buy locally.

and, aren't Honda OB's still made in the US? My 1999 9.9 was made in the US.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

According to the Honda website, it looks like they are made in Hamamatsu, Japan.

As for local dealers covering warranties (thanks, Dave, for your perspective!), I seem to remember an extended thread here some time back about a guy who bought a Tohatsu from onlineoutboards, and didn't realize it had been shipped with no lower unit oil. I think it turned out ok for him, but I'm very glad my Honda had been thoroughly run in before I picked it up, and that the dealer gave me a running orientation in the shop before they would load it in my pickup. I doubt a local shop would honor warranty in the case of someone who didn't understand the shipping instructions in setting up the motor.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 07:53:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 ...I seem to remember an extended thread here some time back about a guy who bought a Tohatsu from onlineoutboards, and didn't realize it had been shipped with no lower unit oil...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I believe it was the crankcase, actually... Honda dealers are required to set up and tank-test each engine and then brief you on its operation and maintenance. The customer signs a checklist that goes back to Honda. (No doubt there's some fudging, but that's the program.)

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 12:32:46

I wanted to point out that Tohatsu is rebranded as Nissan, so keep in mind, if you're looking at a Nissan that you will pay less for it if you buy it with the Tohatsu name on it.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 16:07:43

I just committed to the Mercury. After he checked with Mercury about the additional cost of the XLS, it was more than expected. The LS is just a spacer and longer shaft, but the XLS adds larger bushings and bearings to accommodate the added torque so I'm paying a $400 premium over the Tohatsu for the shifter. I am also paying sales tax, but I'll get most of that back as WM+ rewards certificates. In the long run, it is money well spent since the Admiral and I will both be happier. Incidentally, Chris chose to take us up the channel to the bridge saturday; she wanted to take us all the way to the marina, but we were a little early for the bridge and it got pretty congested so she gave up the tiller - small steps build confidence. I won't say anything, but I hope she docks us by the end of the season. The ease of shifting the new Merc makes that more likely.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 22:44:14

Don't mercury's have a neutral only switch so you can rev it in neutral when needed? I've seen it on Mercs at Bass Pro Shops.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 16:27:50

As noted before, why would you need to rev the engine in neutral? If the plugs are fouled, only sustained revs under load will help and you have the wrong heat range plug - not likely using the recommended plug in normal use. It is a very inefficient way to charge a battery. If it dies at idle, idle air or idle speed needs to be readjusted. It doesn't "clear" the carb or fuel injectors, provide extra oil for the current or next start up, give the battery a boost (squeezing an extra amp for 3 -4 seconds is about .01 AH) , or do anything else that automotive legends claim. Start the engine and let it idle; let the engine come to an idle and shut it off.

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 21:52:24

I have a Chrysler engine -2 stroke, 10HP - looks like the original engine too.

Everytime the engine runs , there is alot more smoke than the 4 stroke engines I have seen others use.

This thread is interesting and helping me learn about the issues with other engines.

Anyone else using a Chrystler?

Deric

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 20:38:54

I got the Merc. It turned out to be the Bigfoot, not a Mariner - an even better deal. Its heavier, but it has bigger shafts, bearings, bushings, and gears in the lower unit and more oil capacity plus more gear reduction (2.44 vs 2.06) to drive a 4 blade prop on non planing hulls. The combination results in incredible low speed thrust. I took it up the Portage river against current and 10 - 15 kts. wind at about 1 kt. VMG at slightly above idle. For me, it just reinforces that we really don't 9.9 hp, its just that nobody builds a properly geared and propped 6 hp XLS electric start just for us. The weight isn't as big an issue as I expected - Mercury's numbers are apparently pretty close to the truth and it hangs on the OMC pneumatic mont with no problem and no list. It takes a little more effort to raise the mount, but the larger and better positioned carry handle makes it about even in ease of use. As a plus, the 3 gal. tank fits sideways in the fuel locker so I can carry a reserve on longer trips.

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2008 : 09:28:08

Well,

My 2 cycle Chrysler is runnning: it had a broken linkage.
I am still interested in the 4 cycle engines.

They do have advantages.

Looks like no one else reading this thread is using a Chrysler.

Deric

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