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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Ode To A Bargain

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2008 : 08:39:36

Not sure if this is a rant (at me!) but thought my expereince might help others looking at used Cat25's. I obtained a "fixer-upper" a couple of years ago. Knowing it needed more than a bit of TLC I have been tackling projects one by one. The boat, which is a tall rig, came with trashed sails, so I bought a new main and 135 head sail from Ullman (great people, great quality) and sailed all last season. Every time I went sailing I kept thinking that the rig just did not look right, but chalked it off as my being a so/so sailor who had not gotten the hang of sail/trim adjustments -- and regardless had a great season. This year I had the boat surveyed (yea, I know, should have done it first, but the circumstances of getting the boat . . .) and passed with some suggestions on a should-do list but otherwise came through ok -- no comments on mast,boom or rig. This week I had a sail rigger who had replaced the standing rigging for me last year stop by while I had the boat at the dock to ask him how to adjust the rig/sails better, etc. He looked at the rig and said it looked like the sails were wrong -- too small for the rig or possibly standard rig sails. After alot of talk and raising/lowering, adjusting the sails we measured the boom, which was a foot too long. We then measured some dimensions from the sails and confirmed that they are tall rig sails. At this point it looks like the mast and boom are not original Catalina but replacements from another boat and taller/longer than specification. This winter when the mast is removed for storage we will check all dimensions and either cut to size or come up with the best and most cost effective game plan.

So, knowing that many here have purchased fixer uppers and/or are looking at buying such boats, if you buy a fixer-upper, don't assume anything!

It's all good -- just, at times, more expensive!

Peter Bigelow
PO - C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 09:38:30

Maybe not, Peter... First, the C-25 design includes a boom that's well over a foot longer than the foot of the mains'l. I presume that's to improve the angle to the traveler to give better purchase. We all have (had) 'em. (See below.)

Second, did you get a standing rigging kit from CD? If so, and if it fit, then that pretty much answers that. I've heard (but not verified) that the TR has a different mast extrusion from the SR--perhaps the same as the C-27 SR? I'm sure you know that the C-25 TR boom is intended to sit a foot lower than the SR boom, for 3' more luff-length with just a 2' taller mast. The mast is 30' for the TR--you can measure it by hoisting a messenger line with the halyard. I suppose it's possible somebody got a taller mast to raise the boom, but that seems like a stretch (so to speak).

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Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/19/2008 09:57:12

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 10:07:23

Dave: -- Good thoughts. The TR boom is 10'4" my boom is 11'6" leaving well over a foot extra for the "foot". The standing rigging was made by Ocean Rigging in Norwalk based on existing mast and stays. We estimate that, based on how the head sail and main looks when hoisted and the fact that the boom sits quite high on the mast (no need to ever duck), that the mast is 32-33 feet v the supposed 30 foot. I will be measuring it at some point to confirm. Not being a racer, I am less concerned about performance but more concerned that I know what I have vs thinking I know what I have.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 10:17:57

If you are not a racer, why not go for bigger sails? You might really wow somebody in light air.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 10:28:57

Thought of that -- but as I have new sails and to fix/replace will cost @$1,600 vs either shortening the mast/boom/stays (quoted @$500.00) or doing nothing (free) not sure how much I want to spend to attempt to wow on the water and if I spend too much I will certainly wow the Admiral (aka tresurer)!

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 16:43:52

A picture with the main up would be nice. If you are not going to race the boat then what you have should provide you with tall rig capability without the liability of the head bonger. It will also allow for a bimini install that you can stand under while under sail. So free is the way to go for me. I like free, but most things are not.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 16:57:49

I think the frog has it nailed. There's been a lot of threads about increasing the head room on a tall rig. Assuming you aren't looking to comply with class rules, I'd look to shorten the boom a tad but other than that, leave it alone. Unless. of course, she sails like a slug because of this configuration.

Or........

Does this taller mast make for a safety issue? There must be a reason that Catalina made the tall rig "tall" by lowering the boom 2 feet rather than simply stretching the mast. It probably has something to do with that CLR thing and all that other engineering stuff I don't understand but trust nonetheless.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 17:22:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...There must be a reason that Catalina made the tall rig "tall" by lowering the boom 2 feet rather than simply stretching the mast. It probably has something to do with that CLR thing...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Actually, that'd be the CE thing

, and the tall rig lowers the boom one foot and increases the mast height by two.

Peter--maybe somebody put on a set up C-27 spars--I think the mast is about 33'. That would resolve the head-knocker issue, but wouldn't be class-legal.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/19/2008 17:23:15

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 20:01:54

You're right, of course, Dave. It's doubtful the DPO stretched the keel to compensate for the 33' mast. Did she tend to heel more than you might expect Peter?

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 20:18:44

Interesting thoughts. I have no idea if she heeled too far and/or excesively - but as I sail on Western Long Island Sound where winds are gernerally light and always variable, she did not seem to heel too much. I have noticed that the boom is plenty high enough so when sitting my 6'2 height has plenty of room under the boom -- which I like. Dave, I still need to do the proper measurements, but as one of the trashed sails that ceme with her was from a Columbia 26 and the bow had a marginal repair work for a ripped off head stay (I have properly repaired via a reputable yard), my gut tells me that the mast and boom will end up matching the specs for a Columbia 26. Part of me likes the "user friendly" dimensions. The otehr part of me wants her to match original specs. All of me wants to manage to costs. Assuming I am correct and the mast and boom are oversized, my gut says shorten the boom slightly and keep the sail lower on the mast and furler and just enjoy sailing. The main has double reefs so I can always shorten sail. It is interesting though that "stuff happened" and no detail can really be overlooked!

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 21:01:28

While interesting to do the forensic work, I wonder - class rules aside - that if it's not broke don't fix it...can you contact the PO and inquire about your observations?

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 22:57:15

It's all speculation until you measure the rig and the sails. If you had the rigging replaced, it's very likely the rigger either bought the shrouds and stays pre-cut, or cut them himself to the specs per the Catalina drawings, so it could very well be the rig is correct. I know you said you measured some of the dimensions on the sails, but you can't know until you measure them all the way around. It could very well be you were sent sails of the wrong dimensions.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 20:41:11

Well, the in water measurement is that the mast is 32 feet. My rigger suggests shortening the boom to the specified length (10.4 v 11.6) and keeping the mast as is. If I want to sell her as meeting specs, cut the mast and put the old rudder (have new CD balanced currently) on.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 21:37:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 ...If I want to sell her as meeting specs, cut the mast and put the old rudder (have new CD balanced currently) on.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That mast with a TR sail puts your boom a foot higher than a standard rig and 2 feet higher than a TR, which seems a little excessive for sail handling and for heel. If you find it to be inconvenient or too tender, you could cut off a foot and have a TR with SR headroom. Of course, you'll have to shorten all the standing rigging, and your rigger should consider the height of the spreaders when shortening the mast--maybe it doesn't all come off the bottom.

The CD balanced rudder is "according to spec" and class legal--I got one, and it's the same as the original equipment on the '89-90. The older original is just inferior.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/24/2008 21:41:21

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