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New Battery-Zap!

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Cate
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Initially Posted - 07/22/2008 : 08:52:08

Well I finally got the bucks together to get a new AGM battery. Bought the Marine Platinum from Sears for $240. Before I removed the old battery I marked each wire with a + or - depending on where it was connected. When we put the new battery in and started -re-attaching wires, one of the wires zapped on the + (sparks). Does anyone have an idea of why this may be happening? Is it possible to ruin a new battery if a wire zaps like that?

Our electric start for the motor is not working now. It was working fine before we replaced the battery.

Any other suggestions for troubleshooting are most appreciated.

1983 C-25, Standard rig, swing keel

Edited by - on

Cate
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 09:00:17

BTW-I attached the - (negative) wires first.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 09:18:52

Are all the wires to the + terminal red, and to the - terminal black? I'm thinking you got something (or maybe everything) backward, which would prevent the starter from working. Was the zap a big bang or just a little spark? With everything switched off, there shouldn't have been any sparks--except maybe from an unswitched bilge pump that's trying to run.

I'd disconnect everything ASAP, and wait for Bruce Ross to chime in.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/22/2008 09:26:24

Cate
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 09:27:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Are all the wires to the + terminal red, and to the - terminal black? I'm thinking you got something (or maybe everything) backward, which would prevent the starter from working. Was the zap a big bang or just a little spark? With everything switched off, there shouldn't have been any sparks--except maybe from an unswitched bilge pump that's trying to run.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The zap was a spark, not a bang. The previous owner wired the battery using a variety of colors. That's why I labeled each wire before I took it off the old battery. The electric start worked fine before. Technically nothing should have changed except having a new battery.
Somebody just told me I should attach the + wires first. I didn't do that.

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:21:57

Connecting the positive leads first is the typical process when jumping a car battery...if everything on-board is off, I don't think the order is too important.

Edited by - jerlim on 07/22/2008 10:22:18

stampeder
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:29:52

If PO used an assortment of wire, he may have used wire that is not big enough or sufficient for the job.
I would be inclined to replace the wiring from the battery to the load - it should not be too costly. Maybe $15-$20.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:30:18

The purpose of that when jumping a car is that by connecting the final negative to a metal part of the car away from the battery, any spark won't cause the discharged battery to explode (from escaping hydrogen gas). A live-battery-to-dead-battery connection will make a spark.

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Cate
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:51:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 If PO used an assortment of wire, he may have used wire that is not big enough or sufficient for the job.
I would be inclined to replace the wiring from the battery to the load - it should not be too costly. Maybe $15-$20.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was thinking of replacing the wiring from the battery (located under starboard setee) to the electric start motor connection (located at starboard transom) What gauge wire should I use for that? Do I have figure the length going to and from the battery or just from the battery?

I don't think new wiring will change the fact that the electric start is currently not working. I would replace the wire to make sure I had correct color coding, gauge, and marine grade. (Electrical maintenance on a 1983 boat)

Edited by - on

Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 11:13:17

To troubleshoot, attach only one wire at a time. I would go for cabin power first; hook it up and make sure lights work. Test everything that is connected to cabin power. Disconnect cabin power and go for next wire, I don't know how many other wires you have on your battery, but do them one at a time. For the engine ignition, I would disconnected everything else and work on it exclusively. Check the manual and also do a visual check to be sure you have it hooked up properly. Whatever you do, don't switch things around the other way if it doesn't work, it's very easy to damage DC circuitry that way because it's designed to pass current in only one direction.

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 12:16:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What gauge wire should I use for that? Do I have figure the length going to and from the battery or just from the battery?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I would look in the OB operator's manual. And yes, you have to figure on the length both to and from the battery. Every circuit, requires the electricity (the electrons) to travel from the battery to the load (the OB) and back to the battery. The further it travels, less electricty (fewer electrons) is available. Especially for a starting motor, you want the cables as short as possible, and you want the largest cable you can afford. I suggest the same diameter cable as you would find in a car - which means you can buy that relatively inexpensive stuff you find at Auto-aftermarket stores like NAPA.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 12:45:34

I just hate it when people start hooking up wiring without any regard to code. Not that I don't have a power boat with a snakes honeymoon on the batteries, but the catalina is as should be, one line to each terminal. Ground to a grounding buss bar. Power to a buss bar to fused circuits.

Every time I work on the power boat I try to find another circuit I can run back to the proper buss bar.

Jury riggin electrical is asking for trouble and not just a little trouble.

If I were you I would add buss bars and work off them one circuit at a time, and color code the end of your line. You can mount a buss bar anywhere on dry fiberglass. That way your circuits stay connected and you will not be crossing them when you disconnect/connect your batteries. I'd have no problem with a grounding buss bar pretty much anywhere, but a power buss bar I'd have covered or try to run the circuits to the power buss bar on the boat behind the switches.

I don't have any idea how the engine you have is wired, and I would not a all be surprised if it was correct to wire right to the battery, but it should have fuses/breakers in the engine somewhere.

I've connected a ground to power before and it burned up a circuit in <<seconds>>.. fried the plastic right off the wire. SMOKIN..

I was lucky it did not burn up the boat.

Your wires can spark even when connected properly, if lots of stuff was left switched on, but normally just a little spark.

I would be very surprised if it hurt the battery.

Edited by - on

Cate
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 15:04:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What gauge wire should I use for that? Do I have figure the length going to and from the battery or just from the battery?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Especially for a starting motor, you want the cables as short as possible, and you want the largest cable you can afford. I suggest the same diameter cable as you would find in a car - which means you can buy that relatively inexpensive stuff you find at Auto-aftermarket stores like NAPA.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Shouldn't I be using marine grade wire?
We're talking 6g wire here. Pretty hefty.
Right now the motor cables (probably 10g) are about 6 ft. long and go to bolts. There are ring connectors on the wires. The bolts also have the wire going to the battery (ring connectors). This system has worked since we bought the motor in 2006.

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 16:03:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Shouldn't I be using marine grade wire?
We're talking 6g wire here. Pretty hefty.
Right now the motor cables (probably 10g) are about 6 ft. long and go to bolts. There are ring connectors on the wires. The bolts also have the wire going to the battery (ring connectors). This system has worked since we bought the motor in 2006.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes there is a real difference in wire. "Marine" wire has each little strand tinned. Regular wire is just copper. However, there was a recent article in Practical Sailor that debunked the argument that it absolutely must be marine wire. The issue is getting corrosion started. Tinned wires will not corrode like copper IF EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS. So the trick is to make sure that your end connectors COMPLETELY seal the wire using shrink tubing etc. Also, marine wire is more flexible than wire from Autozone etc.

On my boat we have #4 gauge running from the battery to the ground buss (negative) and disconnect switch (positive). Then smaller wire, probably #6 or #8, going to the outboard. If you really want to figure it out, find out how much amperage is drawn by the engine starter motor and then measure the length from the ground buss to the engine and back again. That, and charts available in West Marine Catalog, will yield the correct wire size.

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 16:45:40

Marine grade? I really don't know for sure - But what I do know is, that older boats generally have crappy looking wires - so my approach is to replace all the wires and use whatever manufacturers recomend for their products - especially OBs. I like neat wires and like to use cable ties and cable conduit, I heat shrink connections or use soldered connections that I clean regularily with WD40 or similar product. I would plan on replacing wire about every ten years or so on a boat.
A battery cable will break down from the high amperage bursts, regardless of if it's Marine grade or not.
The thing is, you can't get a cable or wire that's too big, but you can get a cable that's too small. A larger diameter cable will offer less resistance and therefore deliver more power. Going from 10AWG to 6 more than doubles the ampacity of the cable. (it doubles every three wire sizes, or 26% every single increment)

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 20:12:30

It's likely you blew a fuse in the starter cicuit. Some, but not all motors have a fusible link in the wiring harness. It doesn't look like a regular fuse. If you can get your hands on a wiring diagram I'd check it out.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 21:17:06

I have two questions?
1. What is the motor type?
2. Is it hard wired to the battery with the cable that came on the engine?
The odds are 90% or better, since you say the motor is an '06, that it has a fuse or fusible link under the cowling close to were the starting cable goes into the motor. The owners manual should provide the info.
As for the battery, I doubt you have damaged it. I was taught in electronics school the negative cable should be hook up last and disconnected first to prevent arching so I've always done it that way.
Before I would run off an start replacing wires an worry about sizes, especially since it all worked fine before, I would leave everything hooked up as it is and just troubleshoot the engine.
Once that is complete then you can start on the other circuits that have problems, if there are any.

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Cate
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Response Posted - 07/23/2008 : 09:19:21

Okay. A day later. I went down to the boat after work to try some of the forum suggestions. I detached everything from the battery and started with the positive wires. No sparks, everything fine. The negative wires also went fine except for a small spark from the same wire type that sparked on the positive side before. It turns out these large (6g?) wires go to the inverter and possibly the charger. I had everything turned off, but there was still a small spark. Needless to say everything worked!!!

The motor is wired directly to the battery via my connection posts at the transom followed by 10 g wire that runs about halfway to the battery followed by 6g? wire that is hooked up to the battery posts via ring clamps (the same things on my car). I'm not sure why the PO reduced the wire size halfway to the motor, but it works. (Maybe it was a cost issue) The PO also used only red 6g wire so he wrapped black tape around the ends for the negative.

So now I know what is hooked up directly to the battery:
Motor
Inverter/charger
Instrument panel wires (three) from buss

This looks about right to me. The inverter and panel wires were installed 2005-2006 so I should be good for awhile. The only wires I would replace soon are the wires to the motor. I would get some big fat wires that run from the battery to my connection posts aft. I wouldn't have that funky connection under my aft berth where the wire sizes change so dramatically.

For now, I'm happy the motor starts instantly and we can go sailing

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 17:07:32

Whoa - away for two days and look what happens! I was out on the road without email (dead PC, but that's another rant).

Cate --
All's well that ends well, I say.

But I'd be concerned about a few basics:

1. I don't like having anything ON that I can't shut OFF. It saps your battery and unless you have an AC charger, wind power or solar panel, the battery will inevitably be weakened. Do you feel comfortable about putting an on-off switch and an in-line fuse on the positive side of the zappy circuit? You can mount the switch on the equipment you're controlling, or in the power panel

2. Wire gauge from the battery to the engine. I agree with your concern and that it can hurt you twice --

>> once if your battery is a little weak, if your engine floods or is hard starting and you try to draw starting current to the starter thru #10 wire, you might lose so much power your engine may not start.

>> second, during the battery charging phase, the wire guage may limit the maximum charging current back to the battery.

To check, if you have long enough voltmeter leads, if you measure the voltage drop across the wire from the battery to the engine during start or run, you may find you are losing a volt or two during peak current draw periods. Less than 1/2 volt is more or less fine.

To reduce voltage drop, increase wire gauge and check the connections for corrosion.

Edited by - on

Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 18:15:04

A couple of folks have said it and it's very good advice; you would do best to connect your battery to a fused, switched distribution panel, it will virtually eliminate any problems you might have with short circuitry. You'll be able to selectively turn things on and off and this will make your life much better... and safer. If something is giving you trouble, you just shut it off and fix it, meanwhile you don't lose power to everything else. This might be a good time to do this as you are already in there and the current configuration is fresh in your mind.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 18:15:47

Are you saying the wires between the battery and the terminals (bolts) are spliced--10 gauge to 6 gauge? Depending on how good the splices are, they could add to the potential voltage drop in that circuit. I'd replace that with a single piece of 6 gauge (or roughly what is coming from the engine). Buy red and black--it costs the same as all red.

Like Bruce, I don't like that your inverter is apparently drawing constantly. Is there no on/off switch on it? If not, you should put one on the positive wire. Until you do, I'd disconnect the inverter from the battery.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/24/2008 18:17:03

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 22:58:47

Common, inexpensive inverters draw low current even when not in use, just like the chargers for cell phones, Ipods and the like. Mine is switched, but I would have added a switch if it hadn't been. Keep in mind that a 350 watt inverter draws at least 30 amps at max load, so use a good switch and try to avoid switching it on or off while under load.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 10:11:32

Cate,
I have done a few wiring mods on my boat, including adding a Perko switch in line with the outboard electric cable to switch between the starter battery and the cabin battery, and also replacing and rewiring the mast lights.

If you like learning from books (Some do...some don't!) Don Casey's book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Sailboat-Electrics-Simplified-Don-Casey/dp/0070366497/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216998023&sr=1-1"]Sailboat Electrics Simplified[/url] might answer all your questions. It gave me confidence in doing these simple things in the unusual marine-electric-DC-circuit world. Casey gives useful info about wire sizes, connections, batteries, circuit testing, and specific circuits on a sailboat.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 07/26/2008 : 00:05:51

I second that motion!

Don Casey's explanations are extremely practical, not full of a lot of useless info, simple and straightforward. He da man when it comes to boat wiring.

BUT THERE'S MORE ! !

And if you purchase Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual 2nd hand from Amazon, you will save money and get all the fix-it knowledge you'll ever need about your boat PLUS the Sailboat Electrics Simplified book contained word-for-word inside the "Complete" book.

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/27/2008 : 23:19:22

Hey Ray,
I have never heard of a "snakes honeymoon" I can only imagine what it means.
Are they like the snakes inhabiting my ex girlfriend's head?

I also agree on Casey's book, one of the very best and useful sailing maintenance books I have ever bought.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 08:02:34

"Snakes Honeymoon"

A friend of mine always said when he finished with a electrical job it would look just like the terminals at the airport. All lined up and neat.

Too many boat battery compartments look like leftover spaghetti.

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Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 11:30:57

In the computer world my buddies and I always called it spaghetti wiring. It makes it hard to maintain and it's potentially dangerous because you can't walk through it without catching a toe. In a boat it's not catching a toe, it's catching a tool in it and pulling someething loose that might short-circuit and damage something.

Edited by - on

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