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leebitts
Navigator

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USA
122 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2008 : 11:39:11

I've never used a spinnaker before. My hopes are to try it tomorrow night while racing. It will depend on a few things:
- Can I get to the boat early enough to try raising / lowering and gybing it a few times before the race
- I think I want pretty light air for the first try of it.

Any suggestions or is it pretty much do what the books say?

thanks in advance

LeeBitts
1981 Capri 25 Hull # 142
Sailing in NH and Maine

Edited by - on

Andy_334
Navigator

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USA
206 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 12:04:15

If you've seen the "Ugly Spin thread" you'll appreciate that the head of the sail goes upwards...... :-)

Seriously, some of it depends how your boat is rigged. They're all different. Specifically where are the control lines rigged to: mast base/foredeck or cockpit?
- Topping lift
- Down Haul
- Halyard

There was also a good discussion here.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16459

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 09:06:44

A symmetrical spin can be a beastly thing - you would be better off to try it outside of a race situation first. Even then, there's a few "gotchas" that can, well, "getcha" on the course. Sets arent too bad, douses easy enough if the pit guy is on his toes, gybes are typically where the trouble hits (and maybe throw in a few high windspeed/gusty reaches for fun, too).

The gybes are definitely a cooperative effort between the driver, trimmer and foredeck. All of them have to be on the same page about what is intended to happen when, what will happen if those intents arent met, and what will happen when (not if!) the feces impacts the impeller. It helps to have good pit guy who knows when to trim/ease the pole (lift/downhaul) too, it's very much a team effort. If your trimmer is good enough to free fly a poleless spin, that's a big help as well. Keep the middle of the spin over the pulpit, and keep the pulpit under the middle of the spin. Nuthin' to it...

Get Andy to tell you about the broach on Ham-It-Up, one of the boats he races with at WYC - I think that's still on You-tube somewhere...

Jim

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Andy_334
Navigator

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USA
206 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 13:43:52

Jim - I really hoped you would not mention that video!

Lee - Jim has some wise words (together with some unwise ones!). Keeping the boat under the chute is important. We have the trimmer(me) count out loud so everybody knows where we are.

Helm: Ready to gybe
Crew: Ready
Helm: Gybing
Trim: Three.....two......one......trip (by the time I get to one, the helm has turned down, the foredecker is in place with the jib sheet in one hand and the trip-line in the other hand, the pole is squared back while the sheet was being eased).
Fore: Made

Another thing, we always practice a set, two gybes, and a takedown during pre-race. Whenever we don't, or when we re-rig after the practice, something always gets hosed up.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 16:50:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andy_334
 Jim - I really hoped you would not mention that video!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">[snicker]

We do something similar once a jibe's been called for:
1. Helm says "coming down"
2. Trim says "pole's square" once it's all the way back and basically flying on it's own
3. FD trips both ends of the pole from behind the mast/pole/lowers on the pole side, gets the new guy and cleats that, makes the pole calling "made" when done; all while the Trim free-flies the kite and the Helm stays dead downwind (hopefully...)
4. Helm says "coming up" and Trim works the pole/sheet as necessary

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Another thing, we always practice a set, two gybes, and a takedown during pre-race. Whenever we don't, or when we re-rig after the practice, something always gets hosed up.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Couldnt be more right there! We dont always do that pre-race, but we're significantly better when we do.

Jim

Edited by - on

leebitts
Navigator

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USA
122 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 08:01:55

Thanks for insight on this. We got out to the course early and were abl e to get upwind, then pretend tack around windward mark, get set on new course and get the spinnaker up, then genoa down, gybe around fake mark, then genoa up / spinnaker down. We were able to do that twice before the race.

When in the race, after we got the spinnaker up it was like being shot from a cannon. Were able to keep it up one whole leg, then gybe at next mark and keep it up on a reach for next mark.

What a blast!

3rd place over all, (a little better start and it would have been second) with the 4th position boat way in our dust.

Edited by - on

joearcht
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 08:15:41

Great discussion, but as I am new to spinaker flying, I need a little clarification on terminology. I understand the guy and sheet with regards to the spinnaker and there reversal of roles in a gybe. I'm also clear on what the foredeck does and what the helm does, but I'm fuzzy on the trimmer and pit roles. Does the trimmer handle the guy AND the sheet during a gybe? Is the "pit" role handling the lift/downhaul or is that role for just retrieveing the spinnaker during a dowse?
Everytime we do a spinnaker set and dowse seems we do it a different way, need to settle it down to something consistent, so far I'm not willing to put the kite up in anything over 6 knots (don't want to scare my crew away).

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 08:30:48

Congrats, nice work!

btw, on the practice runs if you do set/jibe/jibe/douse (2x jibes) then all of the hardware will be set up on the correct side for your mark roundings (assuming it was set up that way to start with). All of our roundings are marks-to-port, so the pole goes up on the S side and the kite comes out on the P side.

CO winds are pretty shifty, so that "windward" mark isnt necessarily going to be the point of set. Sometimes we set mid-leg and the wind may not be favoring the S quarter, so that throws a wrench into the works. Yet another place where it pays to have a trimmer that can free-fly a spin: hand carry the kite to the bow (Pit), FD hoists, and at about mid-hoist Trim does his/her thing. Once the kite's flying, FD sets the pole as req'd. This is easiest dead downwind, but not alway possible to take that course.

As an example of the winds around here, did RC (chase) last weekend for a regatta in Dillon CO. One J/80 did 3 sets/douses on one leg (about a mile long), but they have assym kites so it's not such a big deal to set/douse. At several points in time there were several boats (J/24s) under full spin passing the S/F line toward the "leeward" mark, with boats halfway between the line and the mark sailing closehauled into the mark. You can really tell which crews are paying attn to what's going on outside the boat on days like that!

Jim

Edited by - on

Andy_334
Navigator

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USA
206 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 21:39:53

Lee: nice job on third place! Careful, we’ll all be coming to you for advice. If you have confidence in your crew, the spin is a fun sail.

I once heard the move around the top mark described as the particle accelerator. Assuming windward-leeward course: Arrive at the mark on Starboard. Ease the jib and main as you head to the offset; watch the speed increase. Pre-feed the spin around the outside of the jib, and then hoist as you pass the offset. Lift off!

[slight hijack] One of the best investments the owner made was a smaller spin for higher winds. Essentially is was our older spin, with the shoulder panels removed. Some might call it a “chicken chute”. No that we have confidence in ourselves; we fly that thing in conditions that previously would have led us to wing-on-wing. [/slight hijack]

Joe: the answer to your question largely depends on the set-up of your boat and the number of crew.

I’ll speak for our boat. Both the downhaul and topping lift are rigged on the foredeck. As such, we don’t have a pit.

Helm
Pole
Trim (me)
Twing – essentially pit
Foredeck – doubles as tictiguesser.

Spin trim is a constant conversation between all. Examples:

Tactiguesser spots wind to the side, helm calls for heat-up, trim calls for pole forward, pole replies eased.

Or

Trim says he/she feels pressure in the sheet, helm says heading down, pole says pole back, trim reports sheet eased.

Practice can not be underestimated.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 11:43:41

In our case, Trim does both sheet/guy duty and Pit does up/down pole control.

During the run, the conversation is similar to Andy's but mostly between the driver and the trimmer, and it's the trimmer's job to handle both the kite and the pole(guy). NOT what I consider an ideal situation, esp when the winds pick up (in which case Trim usually hands the guy off to the Pit), but our Pit is the weak point in our crew and trying to have a 3-way conversation like Andy's would be instant disaster in our case. If you have good crew, I'd say Andy's is a better methodology even with the increased communication/reaction requirements.

Pit handles easing the pole up/down during jibes to help out the FD.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Practice can not be underestimated.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Absolutely!

Edited by - on

RonE
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2008 : 06:32:11

Does anybody have any experience with a "snuffer". I saw this at You Tube and it looked prety neat for raising and lowering the spinnaker. RonE

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2008 : 09:50:14

The only experience I have with anything like that was about 8yrs ago on a Morgan Out Island 41 with an asymmetrical. Worked well, but this was a cruising situation where we really didnt care about the weight of the sock aloft.

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RonE
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 07:18:16

I have purchased the chutescoop with turtleroo bag for storage of attached lines for Gary Shaw. He is a retired patent attorney and spent almost 1 hour on the phone talking to me about handling the spinnaker. Although I could have purchased the items at 30% less from some other supplier, he is the inventor of the chutescoop. Based upon comments in this forum, I preferred to order and therefore reward the innovator inventor. Have not received it yet but looking forward to fall sailing with the scoop. Gary will give you 10% off if you order the bag and chutescoop together. Total cost plus shipping to my location $273, and beats the atn cost by about 40%.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 16:41:14

Speaking of "Ugly Spinnakers", just like in that thread, one of the boats at the S2-7.9 Nationals this year, which we hosted in Nashville, actually raised their spinnaker clew up/head down in the practice race on Wednesday. I couldn't believe it! And me without a camera. Oh well...

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