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I Need A Bow Thruster!!

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wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/06/2002 : 20:04:11

I'm joking, of course, but even though the Cat 25 is a joy to sail (when the sails are up) the tendency for the bow to blow down wind when under little or no headway makes approaching a dock a scary experience.

When I'm approaching a dock in a cross-wind, the wind catches the bow, blows it downwind, and we grab a poll or a line or fend off to keep from hitting whatever is in the way.

There is probably no solution to this, since it is a matter of hull and keel configuration (mine is a fin keel), but does anyone have any thoughts? I've had the boat three years now, and am getting better at anticipating and coping with it, but getting into a slip or a dock is still a cause for high anxiety.

Mike M.
Calamity Jane
#2038

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2002 : 21:24:24

Maybe if you change the name of your boat. :)
I don't have enough experience to offer any help.
I've only sailed mine 3 times.
The 2nd time I got skid marks on the hull (tire on a piling).
And the last time my engine seized up and I had to sail to the slip.
If your engine works, maybe you can back in to the slip.
I dunno ... I need more experience.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - ddlyle on 09/06/2002 21:26:01

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2002 : 21:50:46

Hi Mike...

As you know, a little speed helps with both steerage and tracking. I find that the relatively long fin keel (compared to the swing) tracks well at pretty low speeds, but with no speed, the wind will move her around. Anticipating the pressure of a cross-wind while approaching a dock, if you want to approach very slowly, you can keep the nose upwind a bit and "crab" in. If the wind is not absolutely perpendicular to the dock, approach in the upwind direction if at all possible.

A good exercise with a new (to you) boat is to drop a cushion or fender overboard in open water and practice maneuvering around it from all directions relative to the wind. Mistakes won't hurt anything... Of course, the variable you won't be preparing for is current. If you have that, as we do, you have some more things to practice! I've watched many people on stinkers and sailboats have problems because they didn't observe the current before they made an approach. Approaching down-current is the most common mistake.

Another point you may know... A little reverse thrust with the motor turned the opposite way can pivot the boat quickly. The prop-walk effect can help or hurt--you should be sure to know how prop-walk affects your boat in forward and reverse. Generally, it pushes the stern to starboard in forward, and to port in reverse--the slower the boat is moving, the more the prop-walk will affect it.

Practice, practice, practice.......

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/06/2002 21:53:20

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10timesSaltier
1st Mate

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80 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2002 : 22:03:05

Mike,

Do you "coast" into your slip? Are you moving fast enough as you pull into your slip that you have to throw the engine into reverse to keep from smacking the dock? If not, you're probably not moving fast enough to keep the keel from slipping.

I installed a remote throttle/shifter control on mine that really helps getting into the slip on windy days. If a crosswind is up, I keep about 1.5-2 knots of speed going down the finger, turn into my slip, put the bow into the port side corner of my slip (to compensate for prop walk), and easily throw the engine in to reverse and throttle up, all without having to go fishing for engine controls out over the transom.

<img src="http://www.isdigital.com/sailing/P1000245.gif" border=0>

Worst case you only smack your own boat on the front of your slip as opposed to your boat and every boat on the dock! Hope my two bits helps.

Brian.
Great Salt Lake (10-times saltier than the ocean)
"SAFARI", C25 TR-FK #2275

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2002 : 11:02:29

Mike,

I find that the C25 fin keel tracks well if her speed is kept up, but you don't want to come into the dock too hot. Firstly, as you approach the marina or dock, look ahead at the wind vanes and flags of the other boats that are docked around your slip to determine the wind direction and look for rippling on the water to gauge the magnitude. If the wind is going to be on your stern when pulling into the slip, then come in slower. If it will be on your bow, come in slightly faster. If you dock port side to, and the wind is coming from the starboard side then this should just push you up against the dock(make sure you use fenders). When docking port side to and the wind is coming from the port side, then come in with some speed(not too much!) and, as Dave said, keep your bow angled slightly to windward.

An important thing to remember is that the slower the speed, the less steerage you will have so it may be necessary or easier to steer with both the boat's rudder and outboard(If you have a port mounted outboard, then the outboard tiller and rudder tiller will be spaced a comfortable distance apart to hold one in each hand). In my case the throttle handle is also the shifter so I don't have to reach for shift levers(simple is good). I just twist the throttle one way for forward and twist the other way for reverse. I use this technique every time I pull out of the slip and when motoring through tight channels or around the marina. The C25 as a lot of inertia, so I always put my motor in neutral before I perform a 180 degree turn from the main channel to the slip. By putting the motor in neutral and coasting in, most of the boat's inertia will dissipate and with the boat gliding in at the optimum speed, the only thing I have to do is steer the boat's rudder and grab my dockline.

My docking procedure goes something like this.

1. Look at wind vanes and water ripples upon entering marina.
2. Set appropriate speed(determined by wind direction and strength) in main channel.
3. At a predetermined point, put motor in neutral.
4. Begin 180 degree turn(also determined by wind direction and strength) using only the boat's rudder.
5. Aim the bow at a 45 degree angle to the end of my 25 ft finger dock.
6. When my bow is within a foot or so from the finger dock, I slowly and gradually move the tiller so the bow moves along and close to the finger dock, while at the same time the stern starts to move towards the finger dock(just like a car pulling into a paralell parking space nose-first)
7. As I'm gliding into position alongside the finger dock, I grab the eye of my dockline that is fixed to the dock and loop it over my portside winch.(This is my spring line which keeps the boat's bow from hitting the main dock)
8. Before the springline tensions and with the boat still moving forward, I calmly step onto the dock, walk towards the bow, and when the bow finally gets there and stops(due to the springline), I simply grab the pulpit and put the bow lines on.
9. Go back aboard and turn off motor and attach stern line.

I always leave the motor running because you never know if you'll need more speed or if you'll need to give it some reverse to slow down. I never throw it into reverse to slow down when I'm in the slip, because of the aforementioned propwalk and because I don't want another thing to think about when I'm coming alongside my dock. If I have to much speed and need to throw it in reverse, I do so before I start turning into my slip(like slowing down before paralell parking a car). And if I need more speed, I just give the engine a short burst of forward speed and immediately put it back in neutral.

Another thing to think about is that a boat turns like a forklift, from the stern, so you have to steer accordingly. The key is practice, practice, and..um,..more practice.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 09/07/2002 11:11:00

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2002 : 13:59:41

GREAT post, Don ... thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2002 : 18:56:06

Mike - I feel your pain!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> My final turn into the slip puts the prevailing wind on my port stern quarter - and I have to hit a 3' wide gap with my keel to get safely onto the hoist without smacking a tank!
Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2002 : 20:39:02

Derek... Puleeeease... If you can sneak inside a 40-footer at a mark and miss the mark by 2"--you can certainly get into your slip! "I feel your pain!" <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/07/2002 20:43:23

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2002 : 23:39:35

Dave - if I hit the mark I peel off and do a 360...if I miss the 3' area my hoist does a 90 - straight down!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> And under sail a C25 is MUCH more manoevrable than when slowly easing in to the slip...
Derek

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2002 : 23:23:22

Thanks to all for the helpful hints and suggestions on bringing the boat back to the dock. The bottom line, I guess, is "practice, practice, practice."

Brian, thanks for the picture ... Don, thanks for the detailed description of your docking procedure.

Good sailing to you all!

Mike
Calamity Jane
2038

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2002 : 12:59:07

We use a technique similar to Don's but:
The finger docks behind us are so close that we have to do the 180 using the tiller and motor - almost spinning the boat on its keel. We leave the motor in gear (low rpms) and turn the boat 90 degrees at the last second, scooting into the slip before the wind starts to push us sideways.
And yes, practice, practice, practice, then practice some more . . .

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2002 : 13:50:14

The problem is that our C-25's have a large amount of windage in relation to their weight. Compare a C-25 that weighs 4550 lbs with a 38' Morgan, that weighs about 20,000 lbs. The Morgan has about 50% more windage than the C-25, but it weighs about 4 1/2 times as much. The wind has to blow longer and harder on a Morgan 38 to move it's 20,000 lb mass, than it does on the C-25 to move it's 4550 lb mass. Most 25' sailboats have about the same amount of windage, and weigh about the same as, or less than, a C-25. It's just the nature of a 25' sailboat.

In a strong crosswind, you have to start entering the slip a little bit more to windward than you usually do, to allow for a little side slippage. You need to keep the boat moving at the minimum speed that will enable her to maintain steerage, and you have to use reverse to halt forward momentum.

Whenever I have done a bad docking, it has almost always been because of too much speed. Therefore, I always try to use the motor as little as possible, and line up my entry into the slip in such a way as to use the wind to blow the boat where I want it to go, and then use the motor to stop the boat.

As the others have said, you'll get better with practice.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2002 : 15:56:36

go buy yourself a Chapman's. if you dont have one, you need one! small price to pay for all kinds of info!

Edited by - on

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2002 : 14:02:41

I didn't see this covered so I will add to hints. DON'T LOCK YOUR MOTOR SWIVEL! When you turn in tight quarters, such as docking, you need to be turning your motor with your rudder/tiller, and have some speed which you can always reverse.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2002 : 18:38:29

Here is an article by Stephen Reverand on docking that has some good tips in it(and a bit of humor). It is in the latest issue of Boat/US magazine.

September 2002

For many boaters, tying up at the dock can be the most stressful part of the boating experience, except maybe for buying their boats in the first place. Amazing as it may seem, the fear of tying up has left countless boaters apprehensive about leaving the dock at all. Instead they busy themselves with maintenance and chores to get in their boat time without ever leaving the slip.

Docking your boat doesn't have to be so frightening. With a little practice, bringing your boat into a dock can actually be enjoyable. To begin the process of improving your docking skills, you may first try to observe boaters with particular docking styles. Here are just a few:

Throttle Jockeys — These skippers think that there is no set of conditions that cannot be overcome with the generous application of raw mechanical power. They confidently steam into slips or piers as if they were driving SUVs into supermarket parking spots. For the brakes, they hit reverse, a maneuver that can be effective, provided the skipper is as skilled and familiar with how his boat handles as a fourth-generation Chesapeake Bay waterman.

Stern-Liners — These skippers can be identified by the stern lines they shout at their well-meaning crew. (Warning: The orders and insults they yell may be inappropriate for the ears of children.) As is the case in other facets of life, these outbursts usually originate from the captain's own shortcomings. Perhaps the skipper failed to properly prepare the crew or compensate for the wind and tide, resulting in a situation which could cause others to form negative perceptions of his or her boat handling abilities. Faced with these circumstances, stern-liners, feeling the need for immediate action, immediately blame someone else.

The Improvisers — You can spot improvising skippers when, even after they have responsibly piloted their boats into the slip or pier, they have none of the necessary dock lines or fenders ready to secure the boat. Their crew may stand befuddled amidships or on the bow while the skipper rummages through lockers. Many an improviser has turned into a stern-liner just because the crew is standing empty-handed. Others morph into throttle jockeys in an effort to compensate for their own lack of preparation.
Once you have made the preceding observations, you may then begin to formulate your own style of bringing your boat to the dock. Here are a few useful hints:

1. Be prepared. It's not as hard as it seems. Even if you successfully handle every other aspect of your life on the spur of the moment, before you approach the dock, lay out the lines you need to properly secure your boat and tie the fenders in place where they will do the best job of protecting your hull.

2. Avoiding expletives and insults, calmly tell your crew, if you have one, what's expected of them well before you land. It's not an original concept— letting those you depend on know what you're thinking. You'll be surprised how helpful an inexperienced but confident crew can be if they know what to do.

3. Work to understand how your boat behaves under all conditions, not just at full throttle. If your boat, like most, has a single screw, then familiarize yourself with the principle of propwalk. At low speeds the spinning propeller pulls the stern of your boat to one side in forward and to the other side in reverse. Propwalk is one of those subtleties that makes driving a boat different than driving a SUV.

4. Learn to drive your boat gently and cautiously any time you are in close quarters. Unless you're a professional waterman, it's a good idea to bring your boat in slowly, with the minimum headway to maintain good steerage.

Once you have mastered these basic skills you will find that securing your boat is really not so complicated after all. Over the course of a busy season you may even experience the rare satisfaction of a perfect landing. You may then find it's easy to pilot your boat in or out of a slip or pier singlehanded. Once you can do that, two-thirds of the Earth's surface awaits you.

Until next time, keep your eye on the compass and may all your tides be rising.

© By Stephen Reverand

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2002 : 21:22:43

I Still Mess Up (sometimes...)

Have you considered that the times you mess up is directly proportional to th amount of people who are watching?

But when no one is around, all goes extremely well.

Any correlation?

Good reason to practice, practice, practice.

Great questions and answers on this one.

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2002 : 00:39:13

Dear Mike,

Lot’s of good advice regarding docking, but one thing to consider is backing into a slip. We’ve always had a lot of success bring our Catalina 25 into the slip stern-to. Initially, we did this because of the short finger piers at our marina. By lying stern-to the pier, the aft gates lay along side the finger pier, making it very easy to get on and off the boat. Almost by accident, we found that backing into the slip allows for an easily controlled arrival in nearly all weather conditions.

Regardless of whether we are tying up alongside a pier, or backing into a slip, our arrival technique is the same. Prior to entering the harbor, we bring up any required dock lines, fenders and a boat hook and attach them—this will save a lot of consternation in the docking process. The next step is to slow down to a “slow walking” speed and get a feel for the current and wind.

If we’re tying up along side, the goal is to glide into a position along side without the benefit of motor, or just a bit of reverse to pull the stern in or stop wind or current induced drift. No need to be a hero, however! A spring line works well to keep this under control; but pride dictates that you maneuver to a position that simply allows you to tie-off. To successfully accomplish this, you’ll have to approach the dock slowly!

If we’re going to berth in a slip, we’ll back in. To do this, we’ll “glide” to a position where the boat is stopped, or nearly so and then maneuver in reverse into the berth. It’s necessary to get a feel for the inertia of the boat, but from 1 ½ knots or so, about 250 feet is required to coast to a stop. The trick is to visualize the point you want to stop and than maneuver to a position about 250-300 feet away. Put the motor into neutral and use the rudder as required to coast to your “aim point.” If there’s wind or current, you may need to compensate with rudder or even some forward thrust. If the current and/or wind are astern, it’s not possible to drift to a “dead stop.”

After coasting to as slow as speed as practical (stopped, or nearly so if conditions allow), put the engine in reverse (don’t forget the locking lever, if you were sailing with it up!) and maneuver into the slip. It’s possible to “crab” the boat into the wind/current to allow you to control the bow as you back in.

To get a feel for how to maneuver the boat in reverse, find an area with relatively smooth seas and some wind (don’t try to maneuver astern into two-foot chop—to goal is to simulate sheltered harbor conditions). First practice coasting to a stop to get a feel for the distance required. It will help if you do this relatively close to shore so that you can use things ashore as a visual reference.

When maneuvering in reverse, first practice steering with rudder alone and then use a combination of rudder and engine. The turn radius at low speed is impressive when steering with a combination of rudder and engine. After developing a feel for maneuvering astern, motor perpendicular to the wind and attempt to maintain your course by steering with the engine and control the position of the bow with the rudder. This will allow you to “crab” the bow into the wind to keep it stationary.

The next thing to practice is turning while keeping the bow just where you want it. As you turn during docking, the angle of wind and current will change; so you’ll have to change your control inputs (rudder and engine) to continue to balance the bow and keep it from swinging out-of-control. To practice, try turning with rudder and balancing rudder inputs with opposite engine. It’s necessary to crosscheck the bow to see how it’s behaving. This will take some practice, but there’s no harm doing a few “doughnuts” on the open water.

When docking stern to, the best-case wind/current is directly out of the berth, i.e., you back directly into the wind. A worst case is a quartering wind off the bow, because it will tend to blow you into and across the slip at the same time.

The key to docking is to come in slow and if in doubt, abort. In a Catalina 25, docking stern to has the advantage of giving you unrestricted visibility and putting the motor and rudder controls easily at hand (if you don’t have remote controls mounted in the cockpit).

Best of luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the “Swoose”
84TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2002 : 23:17:07

Thanks again to all who took the time to write such detailed advice on how to approach the dock. Lots of good help was given and it's much appreciated.

Mike M.
Calamity Jane
#2038

Edited by - on

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