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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Hull repair / oil canning

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Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/08/2008 : 09:41:31

We are still in a holding pattern on buying a 78 Catalina 25 SK, mainly due to work schedules. We are going out sailing tomorrow with the guy and will either buy or not buy tomorrow.

We have learned that the hull has been repaired, following a hurricane that set the boat up on the dock. He did it himself, claiming to be very experienced in glass work. He had it surveyed and the hull was given a clean bill of health (I will see the survey tomorrow, but this is what he said).

We heard a rumor that Catalina hulls are "thin" and when you disrupt the long fibers of glass with a hull repair, they do not survive the normal oil canning that occurs during sailing, and your boat will sink. We were also told that for $2500 asking price we should buy the boat, lol.

I figured this was the place to check out rumors such as this. What do you think?

Liz
Richmond, VA

Sea Monkey
82 SK/SR #3054

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:32:53

My first thought would be to have your own survey done. Different surveyor of course. I can't help you on the fiber stuff, but there are a lot of C25's out there for sale, so you could probably find another if the survey doesn't go well.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:50:17

I won't go into the relative stiffness of hulls except to say that Catalina's reputation is pretty good among production coastal cruisers. The nature of the damage and repair are a whole different matter. If you decide it looks good enough to buy, you should definitely get a surveyor at least to look at the repair, or better to do a complete survey. You might need a survey anyway just to get insurance. (Check with your insurer.) It sounds to me like that's the only way you're going to feel comfortable on that boat--sailing her won't help.

$300-350 sounds like a lot for a $2500 investment, but your investment is going to turn out to be considerably more in a short while. (BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand.) Also keep in mind that when you try to sell her, the same issue is going to come up. That's another strike against...

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:52:09

"We heard a rumor that Catalina hulls are "thin" and when you disrupt the long fibers of glass with a hull repair, they do not survive the normal oil canning that occurs during sailing,..."

There is no such thing as the "normal oil canning" that occurs during sailing.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:53:08

Liz:

There is no "normal oil canning that occurs during sailing." There are cheaper boats - dare I say MacGregor? -- with a reputation for decks that oil can.

I have sailed my C25 in some pretty nasty stuff in the Chesapeake and it has been as solid as a rock. No, I wouldn't want to take it around Cape Horn, or endure hours of ten foot seas, because that's not what it's built for. It's a fine boat for the Chesapeake.

If the boat you're looking at oil cans anywhere, run as quickly as you can in the opposite direction: there's something more wrong with it than you want to try to fix.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:53:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
[brThere is no such thing as the "normal oil canning" that occurs during sailing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...except on Hunters.

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Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 11:07:24

This is why I wanted to bring the issue up here. DH was speaking with a coworker who is a sailor, and HE said that oil canning was normal, though I don't recall ever hearing it in the sailing I have done, though I've only sailed Chryslers, Hobies and Morgans.

A survey of our own will be the only way to put our mind at ease.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 11:28:30

My boat had suffered some damage to the port side and deck where it had been pushed into a dock at night. The damage consisted of ripping the deck back about 6" and the hull down about 6" in one spot from the deck. I was amazed at the construction of the hull at that point. It was about an inch thick with a 3/8 inch outer shell of fiberglass, a wood core and about 1/4 inch of fiberglass on the inside. I don't know how far down the side of the hull the core extends, but the thickness of the hull at the botom of the boat was probably in the area of 1/2 inch. On the Hunters and Macs of the same class, you can get inside and see the glow of sunlight through the hull. I don't believe a C25 can oil can.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 11:47:30

There are a lot of boats for sale, and there are a lot of boats on which you can conduct your own 'oil can' test.
Push on the topsides (the area between the deck and the waterline, on the side of the boat) and see if you can feel any movement in the hull fiberglass.
If possible, try this on a MacGregor,Hunter,and a Catalina - Try it on every boat that interests you....preferably on boats of the same size. You will have your own answer.
This is not a definitive test, but it will help you dispell or put to right, any disinformation or partial information you may have recieved.
It is generally regarded that a stiff boat is preferrable. When you read boat reviews, stiffness is often associated with good sailing characteristics. I would think that any boat that oilcans while sailing is not desirable.

Let us know how your oil can test goes.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 13:55:47

There are indeed a lot of Catalina sailboats around the Chesapeake Bay. When I was looking for a boat I spent about 3 months until I had considered 3 Catalina 25's and one Catalina 22 all within a day's sail on the Bay.

You can probably get a good deal pretty close to where you are on the Bay. It's a buyer's market. There's a [url="http://annapolis.craigslist.org/boa/775097760.html"]C-25 for $1200 [/url]on the Annapolis Craigslist in an unstated condition.

I would drive a hard bargain.

Edited by - on

Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 14:09:30

Thanks - I have been checking CL in Hampton Roads and Eastern Shore as well.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3478 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 14:36:30

Looking is the best part. Take your time and enjoy.

I like buying a boat almost as much as owning one.

I think the best advice for purchasing a boat is..

Walk away, if it won't go away, Survey.

Aspirin helps with the fever.

Edited by - on

Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 15:18:56

Yeah, I am sure glad we did not get the first boat the caught our eye! The more boats we see, the more we realize that there are great boats out there in our price range that don't need very much work at all. When we started, we figured we'd have a project, no matter what, and that is definitely not the case.

We are meeting some very interesting people, too!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 23:28:34

If it's meant to be it will happen relatively easy. If you have to struggle to make the deal happen it's not meant to be. When I was looking for my boat last summer I fought with a seller in Dallas for 2 - 3 months trying to get him to get realistic on his selling price. I really wanted the boat but felt the price was too high. I finally gave up and a few weeks later, late one night on this forum a local person (Houston) put an ad in the Swap Meet section. I saw it about 30 minutes after he posted it. I called him the next morning, looked at it that afternoon or the next day, and the deal was signed sealed and delivered within 3 or 4 days.

It turned out the boat was actually in better condition than the one I fought for so hard in Dallas.

As numerous people on this site kept telling me "your boat is out there waiting for you, keep looking and you will find your boat". You will know it in your heart when you find the right one!

Edited by - GaryB on 08/09/2008 19:13:44

Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 05:01:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 If it's meant to b it will happen realitively easy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is exactly what DH says!

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1800 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 19:54:21

Have your own survey done on the boat!!! I can tell you from experience that the cost is minimal compared to the work you will either do yourself or have done. While I wanted a project boat, mine came with a really badly done hull repair -- which cost me thousands to have straightened out. Had I spent the minimal @$350 up front for a survey I would have passed on this hull, bought a similar one and saved a bundle. As it turned out I did spend the money and was told that any value-add from my efforts on the "normal stuf" older boats require in work was wasted because of the cost of the repair. Catalina 25's are grat boats -- but make sure you get a good one -- one that will deliver years of safe, cost effective --and happy use.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 21:37:19

Liz,
If it makes any difference, we looked at about 3 dozen boats over the period of about a year. I read "Inspecting the aging sailboat" by Don Casey probably 4-5 times all the way through. I highly recommend the book to anyone who's looking for a boat. You quickly learn which boats to walk away from, and which ones are worth another look. I agree that when it's right, it'll happen easily. We made offers on four boats before buying SL (from someone on this forum). If you're set on buying the boat, I'd recommend the survey, who knows what else they might find, and having your boat tossed up onto a dock may have done damage not just on the side it hit on, but on the far side as well. Inspect the damage very carefully, and don't forget the translated damage on the far side of the boat from the damage.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 07:35:33

While it keeps coming up (get a survey) it is equally important to get a good surveyor. I don't have any real issues with our boat, but I do have qualms with some of the surveyor's write-up. Luckily the PO was honest with me about the boat'scondition, but our surveyor never ran the outboard, only briefly looked a the sails, and missed a few things we have since found.

It would be nice to have a resource some place that listed SAILBOAT surveyors specifically, and made reccomendations for the better ones. I suggest you be on hand for your survey if possible. The boat we bought was 5 hours away from home, and I still regret not being there for the survey.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 08:44:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it is equally important to get a good surveyor<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You recieved what you paid for. For $350 or $14/ft, which is the going rate, you get a hull survey which tells you if the hull is sound and the general condition of and seaworthiness of the boat and a quick inventory.
Your point however, is a good one - It is important to know if the OB in fact works, condition of sails , does the plumbing work does the VHF work and etc - for these things you pay extra and you have to be specific. Some surveyors do a good job and others don't, some surveyors will look at additional details such as sails and others won't.
I've had five boats surveyed. The guy that surveyed my C25 is also a Coast Guard Captain - he gave me a sail inventory but would not take a detailed look at the sails. He gave the OB a visual, but would not start it up, he would not participate in a sea trial.
He looked at two boats for me, the first one he didn't charge me full price for, he told me he spent less than five minutes on it and said 'reject'.
Both of these boats were 1500 KMs away. When I bought Labarca, I went to do my own inspection after the Surveyor said it was sound.
I would not buy a boat without a professional survey.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 08:58:31

We lucked into a good surveyor from what I could tell... For example, he ran the outboard and did a thermal scan of the block to detect blocked cooling passages. He also did a thorough moisture scan of the deck and hull, and quite a bit of hammer-tapping to detect delamination and repair spots (finding none). He looked at every swage for signs of cracks in the fitting or the wire... (No x-ray--that's at very a different price level.) These the things you can learn about from Casey, but not have the experience or equipment to do. I had seen the sails during our trial--I didn't have him take them out of the bags, although he verified the approximate age and condition of the material in the bags.

When I sold, the (experienced) buyers were notified by a member here--they called about a 45 min. after I listed her in the Swap Meet, stepped on board the next morning, looked around, and made a low offer--never even backed her out of the slip. I weighed the bird-in-the-hand against winter storage, countered, and they wrote me a check. From the moment they walked up, I could sorta see through their attempts to hide their excitement. (She was nicely upgraded and had very good "curb-appeal.")

It is a fun process! And my experience, especially selling, is a testimonial to the wisdom of buying a C-25!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 10:39:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 ...I was amazed at the construction of the hull at that point. It was about an inch thick with a 3/8 inch outer shell of fiberglass, a wood core and about 1/4 inch of fiberglass on the inside.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think what you saw was the hull and the inner liner (cabin walls from the decks down to and including the sole), with a batten between them around the gunwale. (I think my '85 had high-density foam there.) The C-25 hull is not cored, thankfully!

Edited by - on

Stellaluna
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 10:56:36

I think we are going to pass on this boat. We were thinking that even if the hull repair was done beautifully, every time we took her out and ran into weather or were sailing her very hard, we'd be constantly worried about whether this repair would hold up. We'd just as soon wait and find one that has not had hull damage. I'd rather get a boat that needed other things done but had a sound hull.

We've got a line on one now that is currently out of the water, so we won't have to pay a hauling fee to survey her. It is several hours away, though, so we'll have to wait until the weekend and take a road trip.

After sailing in a C-25 for the first time, however, we are totally sold on this make and model. It is exactly what we need right now.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 11:30:24

Stella - you probably already know this, but in late October (around here anyway) folks are staring down the possibility of winter storage. It seems to be a motivating factor to sellers.

I would be shopping now, but waiting a month or two to make offers if I were you. Just get 2 or 3 good ones lined up and then sit on them.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 13:37:16

Liz,

About five years ago my boat was hit by a powerboat. It struck right behind the head vanity. Damage included a 10" crack in the hull which fortunately did penetrate completely through. The force of the blow dispaced the bulkhead between the vanity and the forward bearth by about 1 1/2" and broke the base of the head. I sailed the boat in a regatta the next day with no ill effects. The repairman compeletly ground the cracked portion off the boat and refilled with glass and epoxy. Cosmetically you can't tell the difference. Structurlly lit has remained sound as a dollar.

Obvioulsy you can accept or reject the boat but my feeling is this. Catalina hulls are strong. If the owner is in fact a compitent fiberglass repairman and it looks and feels good to you structurally and cosmetically, and if all other things about the boat and the previous survey look good, then it should be a safe bet.I personally don't think the additinal survey is going to tell you anything more about the boat than the previous one.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 14:35:06

Liz,
I'm afraid you're not going to find much sympathy here for having to travel a great distance for your new boat. We made the trip to Bend, OR & back twice to buy SL, and I know that Randy (Nautiduck) traveled half way across the country to get theirs (he wasn't happy that we'd bought SL basically in his backyard about six weeks earlier). We probably put several thousand miles on our truck while looking at boats in WA & OR.

Let us know how the next boat turns out, and congratulations on making a tough decision to turn down your last one.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 14:19:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stellaluna
 ...our family thinks we've lost our minds. They hum the theme song to "Gilligan's Island"...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, they won't be whistlin' Dixie as you sail off into the sunset without them...

...they'll be singin' the Blues!

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