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end over end or dip

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leebitts
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USA
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Initially Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:11:24

Is there an accepted standard on the Capri 25 for Gybing the Spinnaker? I'm just getting spinnaker flying figured out. It looks like end over end can be done with one person on the foredeck (this is how we have done it so far. Dip looks like it requires an extra person; one to pop and a second in the bow pulpit to connect the pole to the new after guy. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

The fun meter keeps moving to the right!

LeeBitts
1981 Capri 25 Hull # 142
Sailing in NH and Maine

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 08:33:02

We've always done end-for-end on 25' boats. Typically, the dip-pole jibe is used on boats with poles that are too large to be manageable disconnected from the mast.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Dip looks like it requires an extra person; one to pop and a second in the bow pulpit to connect the pole to the new after guy<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm not quite sure what you mean by "one to pop", are you talking about removing the pole from the mast? In a dip-pole jibe, IIRC the mast-end stays connected and is raised up on the track to allow the guy-end to move inside the foretriangle then lowered again on the new side.

Jim

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Andy_334
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 22:31:57

Charlie: I would agree with Jim. I race against 20+ Capri-25s. Every one does the end-for-end.

Your foredecker should be able to handle it. Do not underestimate the importance of the driver during the gybe. It is the driver’s job to keep the boat under the chute. The foredecker should not have to reach out to grab the guy. We have our foredecker stand with his back to the mast (and the rest of the crew!). He holds his hand out, while the driver turns the boat until he can grab the line. If you have the foredecker performing acrobatics on the bow, this affects the balance at the bow, which also affects boat speed. Smooth is fast. Dancing on the bow is slow. Practice makes perfect.

Charlie, you’re asking all the right questions. Remember, it is a team effort. Everybody on the crew has a job.

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leebitts
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 23:08:50

We raced tonight, tried launching the spinnaker after the windward mark and were a mess. We stopped, finished the race with jenni and main. After the race we played with the spinnaker (I am new to Capri 25's, and new to racing, but not new to sailing). We got the spinny up pretty well and practiced some gybes that were end over end, all went great. I'm trying to figure out now where I should place the bag. Typically I am racing with a 135 or 155 jib, so I am trying to figure out where I should have the bag placed for launch and the running of lines so that all works. For the spinnaker, I have; topping lift, foreguy, sheet, afterguy and halyard. I'm struggling a bit with how to get the spinnaker to come out from behind the genoa and to have the pole in place as appropriate.

My comment guy to pop related to doing an other than end to end, where it would seem like you'd need a guy on the bow and a different person to "pop" the spinnaker pole and swing it into the guy on the bow. Would seem that end over end could be done with one person.

Fun meter going up

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leebitts
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 23:12:41

It's unfortunate that we can not see prior postings as we add one as I could have asked this on the other. Anyway, very clear to me the foredecker. Who is the driver, the helmsman?

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Andy_334
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 07:46:32

Charlie: Bag positioning somewhat depends on your typical race course. Do you do random course, or windward/leeward? For W/L, we typically launch from the cabin, with the pole on the starboard side, and the chute coming out from the cabin on the port side. (On the takedown, we do whatever it takes to bring the gear in on the port side, so we do not need to re-rig. Re-rigging is the fastest way to assure a FUBAR situation at the next mark.)

After the final tack to the mark, the fordecker puts the Stb guy in the pole jaw. He connects the pole to the mast, raises the topping lift to bring the pole to the correct height, and then tightens the downhaul. Meanwhile, the pole trimmer puts the guy onto the stb primary winch with a couple of wraps.

Just before the mark, the crew pre-feeds the chute. Meaning, the pole trimmer pulls on the guy as the spin trimmer helps the foot of the sail out of the cabin and around the outside (not under) the genny. Be very careful not to allow the sail to inflate and/or touch the mark. The end of the pole should still be more-or-less touching the forestay. As we round the mark, a number of things happen in the following order.

Ease jib and main as boat starts to turn down.
Pull the pole back slightly (say 12” depending on wind) This is just in case the sail load up. It takes the pressure off the forestay.
Launch the chute, by pulling up on the halyard.
As soon as the halyard person says “made”, the pole trimmer pulls the pole back, while the trimmer works to "inflate" the sail by easing or trimming the sheet as needed.
Drop the jib, by releasing the halyard and the active sheet from the port primary winch.

Finally, it is a good idea to “fatten up” the main: Ease the backstay, lower the main halyard by about an inch, and ease the outhaul.

Now the chute should be up and flying. Someone should be facing aft calling the wind for the helm and trimmers.

Edited by - Andy_334 on 08/13/2008 07:49:27

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 09:46:23

+1 to what Andy said above, good description there!

We launch from the cabin as well (typically W/L courses here), and have found that it's very key to have the kite outside the genoa - it helps if the Pit (person helping the spin out of the companionway) leans WAY outside to help the kite stay out of any rigging, including the vang!, and try to keep it about 3+' above deck level - ie closer to pole height than the deck.

Another thing Pit can do - as the FD is hauling on the halyard and there's about 1/2 the kite up, TOSS the rest of kite up and outboard like there was a shelf at about the 6-7' level that it'll end up on. As long as the FD is hauling halyard it wont hit the drink, and we've found that it will actually speed up the hoist and the trim.

A couple of more things to add to Andy's post:
"Ease jib and main as boat starts to turn down" - We do this just a tad differently. We ease main, but make sure you dont tag the Pit feeding the kite with the boom - they consider this bad form. We've yet to do it, tho we do use it as a threat now and again! ;)

However, we DON'T ease the jib just yet - here's why:
1. As you approach the ww mark on the layline, you have the boat balanced - main and headsail trim, and the helm. As you round the mark, easing the main but keeping the jib trimmed will move the center of effort (the wind in the sails) forward of the center of resistance (keel/rudder/hull), that is the main now has less "pressure" in it than the jib does, and HELP turn the boat downwind w/o as much rudder use. That tiller is as much a brake handle as a steering device! "But the jib isnt trimmed!", you say? It's not a big deal, because your crew rock and already have the spin up and trimmed and you're dropping the headsail anyway (well, in a better world than mine, at least!).

2. Having the jib still "trimmed" will help the Pit in that he doesnt have to lean out as far to get around the sail.

"Pull the pole back slightly (say 12” depending on wind)" - this is big. These are older boats, some very well maintained and some not. I have the opportunity to sail a boat that was neglected for several years, so we take every opportunity to go easy on the rig. Keeping the pole OFF the headstay is a priority for the guy trimmer (in our case usually also the spin trimmer, however in higher winds or screaming reaches it will hand off to Pit). Deeper runs arent an issue as the pole will be well back, but in those reaches where the kite/pole gets loaded up and the pole is well forward, the guy doesnt have a good angle on the pole and becomes rather inefficient (difficult to pull back). Additionally, since the angle to the end of the pole is so acute, any stretch in the line will allow much MORE movement of the pole side-side - thus in a big gust if the pole is just barely off the headstay there's insufficient tension in the guy to keep it from banging on the headstay.

Is this an issue? Probably not so much as the headstay is relatively unloaded at this point, and I woulndt be near as concerned in a newer boat, but in a 27yo boat I'll stick to keeping the pole off the headstay.

"On the takedown, we do whatever it takes to bring the gear in on the port side, so we do not need to re-rig." - I think this is good advice, something we need to do more on The Bus. We've had some good S douses that resulted in horrendous issues at the next ww mark, as well as some "baby carry" sets that have gone disastrous. However, if it's the last lw rounding - just get it doused, dont worry about what side it's on.

[Guess I have to go back to work now, but at least I'm already thinking about racing tonight...]
Jim

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Andy_334
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 14:10:17

Charlie: I/we use the terms driver and helmsman interchangeably.

Jim: good to think about racing while working. I have the excuse that I'm on vacation this week!

I should have mentioned that we typically have an offset at the windward mark. This can be a much as five boat lengths away from the mark, so depending on the position, we often reach to the mark with white sails before launching the chute. The eased main and jib allow acceleration from the mark.

I have become somewhat paranoid about keeping the pole off the forestay in puffy conditions. As Jim points out, the guy sheeting angle is somewhat inefficient, so if a puff hits the pole will go forward. The risk of the pole hitting the stay hard enough to break it sends shudders through me. Loosing the rig is not fun.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 16:18:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andy_334
 I should have mentioned that we typically have an offset at the windward mark.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, in that case trim thru the turn but I'd still go a tad late on the headsail to help pull the bow down, ala a ducking maneuver, to ease the pressure on the helm. At both marks.

Hmmm, maybe even a little trim on the headsail rounding the offset to help out the Pit with the pre-feed? Just a thought as we rarely use offsets where I race The Bus so not up to speed with offsets and #1s. We DO use offsets where I crew on a J/80, but the headsail is so small (relative to the rest of the sail plan) that it's never in the way of the pre-feed.

On 2nd thought, screw 'em - dont trim in before the offset mark. You're doing the pre-feed BEFORE the mark, and the loss of speed could be more detrimental with the bad trim in that situation. Whereas in a pure ww/lw situation you approach the mark you'll set at with the headsail closehauled.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have become somewhat paranoid about keeping the pole off the forestay in puffy conditions. As Jim points out, the guy sheeting angle is somewhat inefficient, so if a puff hits the pole will go forward. The risk of the pole hitting the stay hard enough to break it sends shudders through me. Loosing the rig is not fun.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This can't be stressed enough in my book.

J (off to the races!)

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leebitts
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 19:14:37

Jim and Andy, great information.

My race course looks like this

Which I guess that is Windward Leeward. Depending on the wind, we race one way or the other.

Your notes on launching the spinnaker have me a bit confused, let me see if I can restate it.

You put the spin pole on starboard, which means that when you round the buoy you will be on a port tack. The turtle, bag or whatever for the spinnaker is in the cabin, so the afterguy and sheet are connected to it there. stbd after guy goes outside of everything, so is outside the jib, shrouds, forestay and such. Port sheet is pretty straight forward. Halyard must be outside of jib (which after rounding buoy would be on port?), so it must be outside, then under (if #1 up) than attach to spinny. How do I get the halyard to be in that position? hmmm If I pass it under the port side jib sheet does that do it?

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leebitts
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 19:44:00

One more thought. This Saturday we have a race series (4 races). The races will be windward, downwind, windward (just a bit) to finish. anything different for spinnaker set on this?

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Ericson33
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Response Posted - 08/15/2008 : 13:15:50

Charlie,
Set the spinnaker gear up first. I run the guy around everything, with the guy laying on the deck on port side then attach to the spinnaker. The sheet is also run outside of everything (not that far) then over the lifeline and attach to the spinnaker. The halyard is run outside of any genoa halyard lay it also on the deck, then over to the head and attach.

All three lines should be laying on the deck on port side then into the companionway. If you tack onto port after rounding the mark the genoa sheets will be ontop of all three spinnaker lines, have fordeck start to hoist as middeck takes the spinnaker and helps it thru the gap between the deck and genoa foot. As fordeck is hoisting, the guy is brought around hard tot he pole to set, and the sheet is trimmed.

At the downwind mark, set the genoa, your genoa sheets should be on top of the pole, realese the spinnaker halyard slowly as the sheet or guy (if you gybed) is pulled under the genoa's foot and back into the companionway. If the spinnaker trimmer and the fordeck are in sync the fordeck should be watching how fast the spinnaker is being put away, and keep the foot of the spinnaker out of the water.

If all goes well, you will be ready for the next set.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 08/19/2008 : 15:22:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leebitts
 My race course looks like this<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That'd be a triangle. Lose that far right mark, and now you've got W/L (traditional). Or, move that far right mark to just off the windward mark, perpendicular to the wind line, and you have a modern W/L with an offset mark (used when there is a good number of boats on the course).

Also, it looks like if the wind is from one direction (the top of the graphic) you round with the marks to S, and if the wind is from the bottom you round with the marks to P. THAT will keep your crew on their toes race to race! You probably have some interesting mark roundings when leaving the mark to S, too!

I'm assuming this is because you're using all fixed marks and start/finish line? If that's the case, you'll most likely (depending on local conditions) rarely (heck if EVER!) have a true W/L leg. Otoh, with a triangle course you will really only have 1 set, 1 jibe, 1 douse without having to worry much about strategy downwind. But if you do more than 1 lap/race, you'll want to use the windward douse method that Andy described earlier to have all of your equipment is set up on the correct side.

Jim

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