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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Good read... the loss of Wildflower

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/05/2008 : 09:10:50

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=78146&st=0&gopid=1867177#entry1867177

WOTAM - '77 Catalina 25 SK/SR Sail Number 158

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 09:31:50

Beat me to it Clam. I was going to post this....The front page of SA also has a lead in to this story - farther down. It was written by a friend who received the news and had to wait for Skip to get back to land for the details.

www.sailinganarchy.com

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 10:41:18

Inspiring story and tough decision, I hope he writes a book about it, I'd like to hear the whole story.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 10:58:47

Oh Carp! Now I can't see the screen clearly!

It's folks like Skip that push the boundary further that allows others like me to go a bit beyond my percepted limits yet never near the boundary they set.

Paul

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 11:54:29

What a story. I can't imagine abandoning a seaworthy boat. However, I have seen the face of fear at sea - especially at night. None of us measure up.

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 17:18:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have seen the face of fear at sea <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well put.
I've seen that face and heard myself say, 'is this how i die?'
thanx for the link.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 19:32:25

>"I can't imagine abandoning a seaworthy boat."

Skip has posted some additional commentary regarding this on SA...

The boat was just fine... but only as long as she was steered. With three more days of severe conditions ahead of him, he knew he couldn't stay awake to tend her. He had a tiller-mounted autopilot subject to the weather and flooding seas, and one had already failed.

Under those conditions an autopilot failure while he was asleep would probably be fatal. His choice: Do you get off the boat while you can or take your chances on a single point of failure?

Tough call.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 22:31:49

Every once in a while we talk about "blue water boats" and crossing oceans... This tells the story. 1000+ miles from anywhere, with 8-12' breaking wind-waves on top of 15-30' seas (bigger than a house), from different directions, in dead darkness as well as daylight... Cockpit being pooped repeatedly... Just try to picture that. I don't think many of us can. But the key point is that he knew it was coming, and there was essentially nothing he could do about it. Nowhere to hide, no place to run to, nobody to help... just him and the sea. It's amazing that he's here to tell the story.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/05/2008 22:33:13

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 10:06:27

>"Every once in a while we talk about "blue water boats" and crossing oceans"

I think it brings us back to the old definition of 'true blue water boat'... "A vessel capabable of taking care of her crew when they can't take care of the vessel".

Shorthanded in heavy conditions is when the virtues of a design liket the 'ol Wetsnail 32 come to the fore.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 11:11:18

I think a Westsail 32 would have been hove to under staysail and triple reefed main with the crew below. Tired, scared, uncomfortable, but dry and safe. After all, one survived the "Perfect Storm" hove to, in much worse conditions.

I would wonder how much data and information contributed to this loss? If he had not known that there were 3 more days of bad weather coming, could he have held on a little longer? If he had no satellite phone, he would not have had a choice.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 14:42:30

This incident will color my choice of the next boat. I was pondering the merits of a more modern, faster boat versus the security of a full-keel design. Given that I will probably be single handing most of the time, I'm leaning back toward the full keel.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/07/2008 : 10:31:33

Quote: "What a story. I can't imagine abandoning a seaworthy boat. However, I have seen the face of fear at sea - especially at night. None of us measure up."

Jim is right, but that being said I also agree with Jim's assessment that the guy was not in any danger. Just wanted off... He put himself and the rescuing crew at risk. There was nothing wrong with his vessel!

He was uncomfortable. OK, I'm uncomfortable during an IRS audit - doesn't mean I am placing a call to Fidel to see about defecting!

He describes seas which are probably pretty scary on a 28 footer, but 30-40 knots comes with the territory.... But there is an article on him and Wildflower in the September issue of Sail, and this guys irreverance for gear is crazy! Wildflowers knotmeter was a tag on the non functioning knotmeter that instructed the user to drop an orange peel from the bow and count how long it took to reach the stern! Reckless! He may have experience, and yes I am glad he is OK, but he had no business being out there in my opinion.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Block Island, Ball #13

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 09/07/2008 : 12:24:02

"he had no business being out there in my opinion"

Hmmm... pretty strong opinion.

-------------- Skip Allen From SA thread

Sailing into the area of a forecast gale certainly takes some confidence and preparation. I had previously been in many gales and storms at sea, including the '79 Fastnet Race storm as skipper of IMP.

In six previous return trips from Hawaii with WILDFLOWER, I had encountered similar gales in the same area I call "Gale Alley." Gale Alley entends approximately from Cape Blanco, Oregon to the Gulf of the Farallones, and westward 300 miles.

As professional weatherman will attest, Gale Alley has the highest incidence of summer gales in the North Pacific Ocean. Why this is so is subject to analysis beyond scope here. Basically, the pressure gradient in Gale Alley is compressed between the East Pacific High and the heat induced low pressure over Central and Southern CA. This steepened gradient can remain for days. And a "jet" of wind and wave is driven southward off the Oregon/California Coast

I felt confident enough in the boat and my abilities to again plan to cross Gale Alley on this return passage. That things were stronger than planned is just one of those things that happen when you go to sea.

The size of boat and number of skilled crew is certainly a factor in successfully weathering conditions like we encountered. A long-standing rule of thumb by those who have run tank tests is that gale generated breaking waves of a height equal to or exceeding the beam of the boat, can roll a boat positioned beam on to such seas. (WILDFLOWER's beam = 9.5 feet)

The breaking seas we encountered caused a stout Robert Perry designed 42 footer to also run off under bare poles. A bit further north, the seas holed and sunk the port ama of DEFIANCE, a well found 45 foot Norm Cross trimaran also returning from Hanalei. They were assisted by the CG and a container ship, and safely made SF.

But size of boat, and crew number and ability, does not guarantee success in weathering gale and storm conditions at sea. The '79 Fastnet Race Storm had waves of similar height and steepness that I was encountering.....In the '79 Fastnet Race, out of 303 well prepared and manned entrants, 100 boats were knocked down 90 degrees. 90 boats were rolled further than 90 degrees. 18 boats were rolled 360 degrees. And 5 boats were held inverted from 30 seconds to 5 minutes.

It was this knowledge of what WILDFLOWER and I were encountering that helped lead to my sobering and heart rending decision. My dear and loving sister would have killed me if I had died at sea.

You asked the water temperature. It was 62 degrees, plus or minus a degree. If there is a next time, I would also carry a survival suit to supplement the liferaft. WILDLFLOWER's small cabin was already filled with survival equipment, including all ISAF Safety at Sea Category 1 equipment. (4 man liferaft, flares, EPIRB, ditchbag, Iridium Satphone with 500 minutes, inflatable PFD, SSB and ham radio, etc.)

The amount of time that MSC TORONTO diverted off course, and lost during my transfer, was "insignificant," according to Capt. Hruza. We arrived in Long Beach well ahead of schedule.

Apologies for the rambling, but hope these details shed a little more light on our situation.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 09/10/2008 : 08:09:10

Yeah, yeah.... Show me a sailor who doesn't get scared at least once a year and I'll show you someone who doesn't go out unless it's only blowing 8 knots... Anyone can play Saturday morn quarterback, but given that Skip responded the way he did clearly indicates that some folks somewhere musta thought similarly. Anarchy is just that and while I often read, I just don't play... If I were forced to do the same, I might post here, but never there... They will tear you to shreds! But seriously, in the old days before GPS and EPIRBS this guy woulda had to just hang out, wait for the storm to pass and then proceed under jury rig if needed. Remember Ken Barnes? Dismasted on a 45 footer - sort of - going around the Horn with Donna Lange on a 28 footer right behind him. He MayDay'd himself to the dismay of the real sailing community since his vessel really was not in peril. Donna Lange made it, he did not...

My views are based on my own beliefs about safety at sea and responsible seamanship. Not applicable to this forum, except for JIM!!!! Love you! Got my vote! BUT, the reality is that many sailors don't even carry an EPIRB for they don't want to have an "easy button" they an push 200 miles out. Batten down the hatches, hove to, use a sail and some chain as a drogue, throw *** overboard if needed, manage your vessel under the conditions.

NOW, for some harsh reality. For those of you thinking of setting sail someday and cruising like we are, the storm conditions of today are worse typically than 10 years ago - global warming - and the wave heights and traditional passage timing stuff and storm predictions are all running afoul of traditional conventional wisdom. We have a friend who just left Iceland bound for the Faroes and they snapped their boom in half mid crossing. Wild weather out of the blue for what should be a reasonably safe passage at this time of the year. So who knows.... maybe Skip made the right call...

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport RI - heading south soon...

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2008 : 18:13:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">in the old days before GPS and EPIRBS this guy woulda had to just hang out, wait for the storm to pass and then proceed under jury rig if needed<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe.....there have also been a lot of boats that were never heard from again.....

Let me preface the following with the fact that I have sailed 3000 miles solo in the last few years, three trips, in varying and often challenging conditions (35-40) up to 200 miles off the East Coast.

1 Fatigue is a powerful enemy... you get to a point where you can't stay awake and make rational decisions anymore (I got close) At some point you just go to sleep, no matter where, or what's going on. Skip was getting to that point. He would no longer be able to look after the boat. Sleep management when solo sailing is tricky, he got behind the 8-ball. He was afraid what he would find if/when he woke up.

2 A tiller pilot on open water is ludicrous. The autopilot is indispensable for the solo sailor, and needs to be overbuilt with multiple layers of redundancy. But that adds weight, see 5.

3 The boat was not watertight. Watertight has fat seals and powerful locks. Google water tight door and see what one looks like. If you are going to play these games, glass over the roof and put a waterproof plug in the cabin back wall. Same with lazarettes.

4 Closing the hatch and riding it out was not an option, see 2 and 3. Going hove to he would probably have rolled.

5 So....he took a calculated risk. The boat he needed for survival would not have won him the race. (Remember this is a race boat/racer, not a cruiser hell bent on survival.) He was equipped for mild to moderate conditions, and ran into more than he could chew, so he pulled the plug. (Literally). Smart man, he knew when to quit.

Edited by - Oscar on 09/10/2008 18:15:39

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2008 : 20:34:40

None of us has a clue. None.

BTW, did you notice the reference to the Autohelm 1000+ tiller pilot that held him for three days in that stuff? Some testimonial.

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2008 : 07:40:06

I finally had a chance to read this story. How sad...I can not imagine the torment, physical as well as mental, this individual experienced that day.

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