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Shauneen
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/05/2008 : 20:42:51

A lovely day was planned-good friends, good music, and good weather we hoped. We anchored off Fort Adams in Breton Cove, Narragansett Bay, RI. We got there early and found a great spot in an estimated 25' of water. We had power boats in front and to both sides. Our neighbors had 75-100' of anchor line out so that is what we put down. The wind and the outgoing tide were in opposite directions. A wind change from NW to SW was anticipated as was the tidal change. Directly in front of us at about 50'was a 25'Hunter rafted to a 20 foot small power boat. They later claimed to have 3 anchors out each with 20-30' feet of line ("so they couldn't possibly be dragging"). We had many near misses as they accused us of dragging anchor. Well suffice it to stay after multiple near misses as the anticipated wind shift came they hit our rear quarter (all the fenders had been deployed at the front of the boat) and nearly took off our motor.

In the few hours we tried to enjoy the concert several things seemed to be happening:
All the boats were bow to the tide instead of to the wind
The wind seemed to be blowing us over our anchor while the heavier power boats seemed to maintain a more consistent position.
Our position in relation to the boats on either side was relatively constant when the wind slowed.

Aside from avoiding these crowded anchorages and rafted boats on short lines does anyone have any words of wisdom for dealing with the mismatch of wind and tide etc?

As always thanks for all insights offered.

Shauneen

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2008 : 22:14:22

Interesting... That Hunter had about .7:1 scope! From my experience:

- When tide and wind are different, powerboats will tend to point toward the wind (because of their windage), and sailboats toward the tide (because of their keels). Wind will make them both swing.

- 5:1 scope (minimal except in still conditions) in 25' of water for your boat means about 150' of rode out. That's 5 * (depth plus freeboard at the bow). 7:1 (~200') is recommended for overnight security in moderate wind, waves or tide. Below 3:1 (90'), the anchor probably won't set--but that depends on the anchor and the bottom.

- Re the Hunter: In 25' of water, 20-30' of rode out will drag, even if he hangs 10 anchors over the side! Putting the anchor on the bottom does not cause it to keep the boat in one place--nor does hanging it 5' above the bottom! Horizontal pull on the rode is what sets the anchor. The next time somebody tells you what that guy told you, tell him to go home, get a book, and learn how to anchor--or to go somewhere else and hit somebody else's boat.

- The more chain on the rode, the better it will pull the anchor horizontally. Most sources recommend the length of your boat in chain, minimum.

- A good tug (engine in reverse) is required to "set" the anchor, after all scope is deployed. The Hunter would have found this wouldn't work, especially on the anchors with 20' of rode out in 25' of water!

- Too bad Sten wasn't nearby.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/05/2008 22:44:22

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2008 : 22:32:26

With your anchor properly set, you should be able to gun your OB in reverse to prove that your anchor is set and holding.
I supose that if I were being challenged, I'd use this simple demo to prove my anchoring prowess and challenge my anchorage neighbour who appeared to be the guilty party to do the same.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 08:40:13

Quote: "Too bad Sten wasn't nearby."

Oh, I was there. But since Lysistrata is our home, we decided to stay put at the rear of the anchorage near the mooring balls at the spindle. (Side point - my near 7/1 was criticized by one fellow who anchored too closely and then claimed that if we hit that I would be responsible because we had too much scope out and we were all chain so we should defer to a guy hanging on mostly rode.

There is not a lot you can say at that point)

Now back to the matter at hand. You all were dragging!

My wife and I anchored with our Zodiac (which has 15 feet of chain! HELLO?

) and saw Jimmy Buffey on Sunday and when those storm clouds built up on Saturday before the Counting Crows we went back to the mothership safely anchored outside the zone. It rained and blew pretty good and I expected the cluster f... to become a serious issue and sure enough it did.

You were on 3 or 4 to one! The curmudgeon and I agree...

Dr. Dave knows how to anchor and it seems that this topic comes up every so often...

Basically, that situation is a recipe for disaster. Rafted boats hanging on too little scope (shoe strings for rode) with tiny hooks down in what some would classify as almost open seas with tidal and wind changes and a bunch of drunk boaters hanging over the side? Amateur hour! This coming weekend promises no better. FYI - the real pro's - yes those year-round Newport Liveaboards on classic wooden yachts - ALL leave before the festivals even start.

And since when does a Hunter anchor? I finally saw one anchor and he has been here awhile! Truly a design marvel... it has one of those overhead travelers - i.e. racing tail scoop thing on a teenagers car these days... Anyway, we rarely see Hunters anchor - period, so if you see one, RUN! Actually, until I see that a production boat owner knows what they are doing, I will still be a skeptic. 4/1 might work on all chain with boats tied on. 5/1 on a combination with 25-30 feet of chain might work holding two... Neverless, I still stand by my original thought - You were all dragging out there!

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport, RI - In the Anchorage 24/7

Edited by - redviking on 08/06/2008 08:42:24

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 09:08:42

I bought one of those small hand held gps $100 garmin 72(its more accurate then the wired in one ,on my boat)
it tells exactly where you are .At night its tuff to see if you have moved ,especially if every one else is dragging .
they use alot of power ,two aa batteries a night

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 09:12:15

we went to the vibe in Bridgeport last weekend pretty fun at night ,
during the day the volume was way down , what kind of rock out is that !

Edited by - SEAN on 08/06/2008 09:13:03

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 09:49:59

Speaking of the GPS... I zoom all the way in and use the tracking line on my 276C to see where I dropped the anchor, and then the arc of my swing after backing up and setting the anchor. At any time, I can turn the GPS on and see that I'm still on that arc, even if the wind or tide swings me 180 degrees. The arc does change a little depending on how taut the rode is. When sleeping (except in dead-calm), I set the anchor alarm based on my scope and what's around me.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 09:57:34

Hi Shauneen,

One thing you mentioned that hasn't been addressed is that all of the boats were bow to the tide. You have to figure out which is going to affect your more; the wind or the tide, then anchor accordingly. Also it helps to know that your boat will swim almost none if the wind is hitting it on the stern or quarter and this can be used to your advantage in tight anchorages. If you need to fit into a narrow slot, anchor so your stern is to the wind, even if this means carrying your anchor rode to the stern and cleating it off there.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 10:24:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 ...anchor so your stern is to the wind, even if this means carrying your anchor rode to the stern and cleating it off there.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That'll raise some chatter in the anchorage!

"Hey--is that boat adrift?? He doesn't have an anchor out!"

Actually, I like the change of scenery--kinda like those revolving restaurants. One minute I'm facing a classic ketch, the next I'm facing a hot babe on a Bayliner!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/06/2008 10:25:56

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 11:26:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Speaking of the GPS... I zoom all the way in and use the tracking line on my 276C to see where I dropped the anchor, and then the arc of my swing after backing up and setting the anchor.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,
Can you elaborate on your technique a bit? I originally bought my 276C for the anchor alarm which works well, but I'm trying to understand what you mean by "tracking line". Do you mean the "bread crumb" line that's left behind as the GPS moves? I've observed on ours that that line ends up looking like a spaghetti bowl more than an arc, so I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 11:51:43

Yup--that's what I meant--the breadcrumbs. Your "spaghetti" might be because of less steady wind or current, and therefore a more random walk... Also, when I set the anchor, I can actually see the initial stretch, followed by forward "bounce" when I stop backing down the big 225, and then some random wandering. But with a steady wind, the boat begins to "dance" in a steady pattern that traces a sort of muddy arc--not totally precise. (Think of spaghetti within a bowl.) As long as I'm on or within the arc, I figure I'm OK. When wind or current shifts, I can see the approximate distance from the original set-point and judge that I'm still set (or quickly re-set). If I see a zig-zag going away from that point, I know I'm dragging.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/06/2008 11:59:56

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 15:40:11

my hand held works in the boat you can keep it next to you while you sleeping ,
I think is a plus .

I would get the better models if I bought one again , it doesn't show the land , that's a negative .

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2008 : 16:32:01

I keep mine next to me as well, and when I built the power cord for it, I intentionally made it long enough to go anywhere on the boat except the bow. That way we can use it in the cockpit, cabin, V-berth or aft-berth as we please. Plus it runs off of ship's batteries instead of it's internal, so it stays charged.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 08:13:39

Most plotters and some handhelds allow you to set the anchor alarm based on how far you will let your boat swing. We routinely choose .02 nautical miles so we don't get awoken for nothing. If your handheld does not do this, then Daves method works well. During the remnants of Hurrican Ernesto a few years back, we also used the following technique. Before the storm - or just after you drop the hook in some situations - mark your position on your handheld. Then use the "goto" feature and you will always know exactly haw far away you are from your original position. Calculate in scope and tidal changes and you can at a glance in the middle of the night know what is happening.

sten

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 08:32:17

Boy does this topic sound familiar some things NEVER change. Ok I do not have a great deal to add Dave pretty much says it all. The anchor and bottom relation does really play a key role in how well it holds too. My dad always used the correct scope but had an old Navy type anchor (he was in the navy and liked the connection and it was way heavier than needed – no matter he had me) with too little chain and I do not think the thing ever held us well, years later he switched to a Danforth. West Marine has a little how to here is the link http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/AnchoringTechniques.htm if interested.
I can’t pass up on a chance to tell a little story about the area in discussion and experiences we, mostly my dad, had in Brenton Cove. We had a mooring there off the state dock, but closer to the houses ( houses by some peoples standard ) across the way, about where some of the state moorings are now. This was back in the early sixties. We use to anchor there all the time prior to setting a mooring and always ended up in those types of situations - blame assessment. Well my dad finally got fed up with it and put 6 cast iron radiators (the type found in older homes) down for a mooring with another guy. That pretty much ended discussions as to who was moving.

Now one may ask how does one put a mooring in Brenton Cove? I really can’t answer how they managed, legally, to place a mooring there (physically I can because I helped) but I can say that both my dad and the other guy contributed to the governor’s campaign and that the mooring was always left alone for at least a decade. Then things started to change and we would visit the mooring in the spring, to take the winter log off and it would be gone. No problem my dad had a son & friend who could dive. He would get us over top of where he thought the mooring to be (before GPS) and send us down sure enough it had not moved although by the mid seventies you could no longer see all the radiators and the lobsters were not thrilled with two divers retrieving a cut chain from their home. Ends up about the mid or late seventies the state or city placed their moorings in that location about 20’ or so away and for a couple of seasons my dad stubbornly still moored there. I think the harbor master may have finally had a word with him. This similar story was played out in Potters cove to the north but I think he just lost that mooring due to not being able to relocate it after a chain break. If you know the area visibility in the water is or was not then as good in Potters cove as Brenton cove and landmarks were more difficult too. By the way Sten if your still there I know where you can find a couple of lobsters

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 08/07/2008 08:34:16

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 08:56:04

Quote:"By the way Sten if your still there I know where you can find a couple of lobsters?"

My lobster trap is leaving the boat today!!! After one year, we only caught our rudder somewhere in the cheasepeake and you need a license around there here yankee parts to take lobster. SO, we buy them. 8 bucks a pound or 5 bucks for the freshly molted kind. Taste the same. Lobsta tacos anyone?

sten

Newport - in the anchorage!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 09:31:51

Anchor alarms are useful, particularly when sleeping, but you have to decide on a distance that mimially allows for 180 swings and scope changes... With 100' out, if you allow 225' for swing, that could allow you to drag 125' from your original location--possibly an issue if you're close to Sten!

Sten's "Go To" method is good--I'd mark the drop-point, assuming the anchor sets not far from there, and then I'd be able to check the distance from any direction.

I'm more of a "picture is worth a thousand numbers" guy... The "breadcrumbs" picture helps convince me that I'm holding even as the boat dances around the anchor, particularly just after setting. If my position is within the "spaghetti bowl", I'm comfortable.

BTW, Sten... A few weeks ago, when I anchored toward the NE side of Great Salt Pond on Block Island--your least favorite holding--to break out the next day, I had to motor past the anchor and yank it from the opposite direction. My windlass couldn't do it alone. That's what I'd call a set.

(...either that or I hooked an underwater cable...

)

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 12:13:09

I'll also take a couple of compass bearings on prominent points. If the bearings change much, I know I could be dragging, but it could just be the tide or wind changing directions. Never hurts to have an analog backup to your electronics. I keep meaning to make a note board for stuff like this so I can write on it in grease pencil to keep track in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 16:10:00

I too like Sten's "Go To" idea. Except you gonna stay awake at nite if your handheld does not an alarm. I cant imagine anyone anchoring overnite not having some type of alarm.
And Dave, dont think that was underwater cable you hooked on. I heard mermaids hang out in those waters.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 19:38:35

Mermaids... Hmmm.... Maybe that's who was tapping on my hull all night--wanting to get in! (No kidding--somebody was!)

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 11:54:25

Dave,

Oh you were set allright... The holding is good in spots, but you never know about the errant beach towel down there fouling your anchor.

I just helped a beautiful wooden ketch owned by a very newbie Frenchman who decided to go get water and then could not get his anchor all the way up... Drove around for awhile until he snagged something so solid the divers couldn't bring it back up. The harbormaster had to push them off another vessel many times and finally told them they had to cut the chain loose. THEN, I had to board their vessel becasue they couldn't pick up the mooring and the Harbor master had to tie on and drive them into place while I snagged the ball.

File under - ok, so it wasn't a Bendy Toy this time!

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport, RI - In the Anchorage 24/7

Edited by - redviking on 08/08/2008 11:55:38

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 12:49:41

I guess a wooden sailboat doesn't make you a wooden sailboat sailor!

"errant beach towel"... I guess there're probably deck chairs, biminis, deflatables, and just about everything else down there in The Pond. Hopefully it migrates to the 50' hole.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/08/2008 12:53:04

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 11:53:28

I use 50 feet of 5/16 galvinized chain on my anchor, which is a 13 lb Danforth. I usually aim to anchor in 25 feet of water. I go past the point I want to anchor, turn around, and while going forward DOWNWIND I take the motor out of gear, turn off the autopilot but leave the tiller locked centered, then go to the bow. I try to have the boat speed about 2 - 2.5 knots.

I drop the anchor which streams aft under the boat when I am over the exact spot I want.

I let out all the chain and about 25 feet of line so it streams aft neatly, not dumped in a big pile.

I snub it off on the 10 inch anchoring bow cleat (with backing plates) I have installed behind my anchor roller and in front of the anchor locker.

It will usually bite HARD and you can feel it, you can barely hold the line. Use the line to stop the boat.

The boat will swing around now bow facing wind.

Let out another 25 feet. Cleat it off. This technique prevents the situation of the anchor sitting on the bottom with all your chain on top of it. The method of anchoring from the bow with the boat going forward downwind comes from Hal Roth's book "How to Sail Around the World". It is the only easy and secure way to do it single handed.

Go to the cockpit and give it a good blast in reverse. Take a look at some points on land to make sure you are not dragging. Most likely you are moving backwards, but just straightening the chain/rode. After all, you felt it bite.

Shut off engine, go to the bow. Check everything, make sure you are not dragging. Rode should be hanging straight down. If it is straightening, then you feel it jumping or bumping, then hanging limp, then repeating, you are dragging.

Now that is it well set, you can take up some scope if winds are light and you don't have much room to swing. Never take it up past the chain. Having 50 feet of heavy chain on the bottom lets me sleep at night. Plus I carry 3 anchors and can always set another bow anchor plus stern anchor if needed.

If it is really windy or there is some load on the rode, let out appropriate scope.

As long as it is windy boats don't swing too much. Look out for dead calm plus tidal currents and power and sail boats mixed and boats will wander all over seemingly at random.

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

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USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2008 : 09:39:11

Jim, what did you use for an anchor roller?
any photos?
thnx

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2008 : 13:27:36

My handheld GPS downloaded to the laptop would let me know if I was dragging. It was actually a great help, I ended up getting a different type of anchor thanks to this info. I could look at the map and see the direction I was dragging. The long lines with many dots showed my slow progress. We anchor offshore the gulf in 85 feet of water for fishing and wreck diving, and we knew we were dragging, but the specific information helped a lot.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2008 : 21:49:02

Ray, that pic is fascinating. Its very telling. What time period was this taken from? What type of bottom did you anchor in and what type of anchor did you use and what did you end up replacing it with.

Steve A

Edited by - on

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