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I call for a vote

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2008 : 14:46:05

Regarding article 10 of the bylaws & constitution:
X. SUSPENSION:

 1. Any Officer or Member may be suspended or expelled by a vote of the Regular Members (Article VIII, Section A) for conduct or action deemed to be prejudicial or injurious to the Association. 

Regarding the ongoing actions of C-25 Observer and/or Peregrine (presuming they are the same person and are members of the association) with regard to former officers, in particular Frank Hopper. I believe that their personal attacks on their blog constitutes actions both prejudicial and injurious to the association.

I call for a vote to expel said member(s) from the association, or if they are not members, block their access to the forum.

I for one am tired of reading vitriolic attacks on his blog (I know I don't have to read it, but felt that to be fair I should). Plus I am equally tired of reading more veiled attacks here in the forums with regard to the elections, past officers, supposed indiscretions, etc., all of which seem to have happened years & years ago and doesn't seem to bear on the current association very much. I feel that these ongoing discussions are not in the best interest of the association. If there are indeed inequities that need to be addressed, those issues need to be addressed by the incoming officers, but they need to be presented in a logical, unemotional manner so that the problem(s) can be fixed. If there is a case to be presented, it needs to be presented in a non-ax-to-be-ground manner.

I have no idea how this is organized for a vote by the membership, but feel that we as an association need to purge this thorn from our side.

I can imagine the lurkers out there wondering about joining the association reading about dirty laundry & whether it's in their best interest to join.

Perhaps in the future we might consider doing our election business in a forum area only open to the membership. I realize this reduces the transparency of the election process somewhat, but it seems reasonable to me since only members can vote.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 10:54:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Regarding the ongoing actions of C-25 Observer and/or Peregrine (presuming they are the same person and are members of the association) with regard to former officers, in particular Frank Hopper. I believe that their personal attacks on their blog constitutes actions both prejudicial and injurious to the association.

I call for a vote to expel said member(s) from the association, or if they are not members, block their access to the forum.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am a dues-paying member of the Association, but not a voting member, because I no longer own a Catalina 25, 250 or Capri. Nevertheless, I would urge the voting members to support David's proposal to expel Mr. Gisondi.

For those who might not be aware, Mr. Gisondi was previously expelled by this Association as a result of his inappropriate conduct. When I recently saw that he was beginning to participate in the forum again, I was surprised that he was being allowed to do so, because I have not seen any significant change in his behavior that would, in my opinion, justify the restoration of his membership privileges. I don't know whether a decision was purposefully made to re-admit him, or whether he simply re-applied, and nobody realized who he was. In any event, upon his return, he has resumed much of the same conduct that brought about his previous expulsion.

This forum is uniquely characterized by the camaraderie of its members. The members restrain themselves from offending each other, in order to maintain that spirit of good will. For those who enjoy "flaming" others, or engaging in volatile political debates, there are numerous websites where such behavior is acceptable. On those other websites, Mr. Gisondi's vitriol might be acceptable, but it is not acceptable here.

The business of the Association is, and should be, conducted openly, so that the members can see for themselves that their interests are being protected. In the past, the members have been able to ask questions and seek information without engendering personal animosities, and that is as it should be. Mr. Gisondi's conduct was, in my opinion, harmful to the National Association when he was previously expelled, and it is harmful now.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge and belief, Article X of the By-laws was written, and adopted by a vote of the membership, as a result of the previous expulsion of Mr. Gisondi.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I can imagine the lurkers out there wondering about joining the association reading about dirty laundry & whether it's in their best interest to join.

Perhaps in the future we might consider doing our election business in a forum area only open to the membership. I realize this reduces the transparency of the election process somewhat, but it seems reasonable to me since only members can vote.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I share David's concern that lurkers and other potential new members might be turned off by the turmoil engendered by Mr. Gisondi, but believe the appropriate remedy is to expel Mr. Gisondi, and not to carry on the Association's election or other business in a members-only site. When nominations for offices in the Association are being solicited, it should be done in the General Forum, where it will have the widest possible exposure. The actual voting should be done privately, but the discussions should be open and public. Much of the history of the Association exists only in the memories of some of the older members, many of whom can no longer access the restricted sites. By carrying on such discussions in private on those restricted sites, the members would lose the benefit of institutional memory. Moreover, openness in an organization greatly tends to discourage any potential misconduct.

With only the rarest of exceptions, the members of this Association have shown that they can discuss the Association's business openly and maturely.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 12:23:26

Very well said, Steve. I too would support JohnG's expulsion - he is nothing but a very disruptive event to this Assocn.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2008 : 22:58:28

Gary Bruner served as Vice Commodore of the Association and as Fleet Captain of Fleet #94 held the most successful “Nationals” in the history of the Association.

In that election there was not proper notice to the membership for nominations.
I strongly contested the nominating process and the nominating period was extended.
It was only during that extension that Gary was nominated.
The fight to open up the nominations to ALL the PAYING members was painful and fiercely opposed by the “powers that be”.
The result however was the election of a hard working Fleet Captain who staged a “Nationals” attended by more boats in Assoc. history, 22 boats, and who served the Assoc. well.

The one and only issue here is to secure that all the members have an opportunity to participate in, and be informed of, the governance of the Association.

Unfortunately there is a fierce and determined effort to retain the status quo and reduce the Assoc. to the forum, albeit led by a non-catalina owner.

Too bad, I had hoped that a more open and informed Association Membership would evolve.
That now appears unattainable.

John Gisondi - Peregrine - #4762
Nominee for Secretary
Mainsheet Editor - 2002-2206

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 10:26:09

"a “Nationals” attended by more boats in Assoc. history, 22 boats"

I would like to point out that of the 22 boats only 4 - 5 were from "out-of-town", the rest were already on the Columbia River which is the main reason why there was a large attendance.
And indeed Gary B did accomplish one heck of an enjoyable Nationals.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 10:31:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine:
Gary Bruner served as Vice Commodore of the Association and as Fleet Captain of Fleet #94 held the most successful “Nationals” in the history of the Association.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Gary did a great job with that regatta, but it wasn't the most successful in the history of the Association. That record is held by the 1985 National Regatta, in which 32 C25s were registered, and 29 boats from seven states actually competed.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In that election there was not proper notice to the membership for nominations.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Which election are you referring to? The current one? The by-laws require that the officers issue a call for nominations by August 7. The call for nominations was issued by Commodore Bill Meinert on August 5, 2008. Also, a call for nominations was published in the August issue of the Mainsheet. The requirements of the by-laws were met.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The fight to open up the nominations to ALL the PAYING members was painful and fiercely opposed by the “powers that be”.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's the crux of the problem, John. You see yourself as some sort of righteous warrior, like Don Quixote, waging war against the "powers that be." The problem with your fantasy is that nominations were sought in the manner required by the by-laws, and while the officers were pleading with people to step up and offer to serve the association, you were waging war with the existing officers, accusing them of acting with secret and unworthy motives, and making their lives miserable, and demonstrating to anyone who volunteered to serve that he would be subjecting himself to this sort of niggling nonsense.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unfortunately there is a fierce and determined effort to retain the status quo and reduce the Assoc. to the forum, albeit led by a non-catalina owner.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The only fierce and determined effort that concerns me at the moment is your fierce and determined effort to disrupt this Association, to turn every difference of opinion into a war, while utilizing the kind of tactics that most of us have found so offensive when used in the arena of national politics.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/16/2008 10:34:05

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 12:42:33

It seems to me that if he was once expelled and no over-riding action has occurred to reinstate him, then he is still currently expelled and no further vote of the membership should be required. Somebody should just flip the proverbial switch and turn him off. His IP address has been published and I assume that's what it takes???????????

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 20:09:26

John,
You make an excellent point, if he's already been expelled and is now back simply because of oversight, let's simply block his logon & be done with it.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 21:29:12

I agree to either a vote or to the up-holding of a previous suspension.
I suggest that it be the existing (outgoing) administration that deals with this matter so that the new administration can start fresh.
My apologies if I have contributed to any negativity relative to C25-Observer/Peregrine/John Gisondi...I did not like the emails he sent me directly, and I will not tolerate the unnecessary disturbance he has foisted upon this forum.

So, do we have transcripts or documentation regarding his banishment or ouster? If we do, then lets enforce it. If we don't have it, lets hold a vote or do whatever is the next logical step in seeking membership opinion on this matter.

Edited by - stampeder on 09/17/2008 10:48:28

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 14:56:55

WARNING: Troll Feeding Ahead
(I know, I said I wasnt gonna do that any more. Sorry, I'm in limbo at the office waiting for a project to ramp up...)
And I apologize for being late to the party!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 Gary Bruner served as Vice Commodore of the Association and as Fleet Captain of Fleet #94 held the most successful “Nationals” in the history of the Association.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was not in attendance for that event, nor was I a member of the association at that time. By the accounts I've heard, it was a most excellent event.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In that election there was not proper notice to the membership for nominations.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And what year was this, please?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I strongly contested the nominating process and the nominating period was extended.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Congratulations! It sounds like there was an issue in the process, which you brought to someones attention, and it was rectified. Good behavior. btw, what year was this?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It was only during that extension that Gary was nominated.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In light of the fact that Gary was later voted in, I submit that Gary's eventual nomination can be considered A Good Thing, and as such that the extension of the nomination period was also A Good Thing. And in what year did this take place?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The fight to open up the nominations to ALL the PAYING members was painful and fiercely opposed by the “powers that be”.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">At the risk of being redundant (and repetitive), what year was this again? Are you referring to this year's election (or even LAST year's, under which the current officership was voted in)?

To my knowledge, "ALL the PAYING members" were open for nomination (and essentially BEGGED to volunteer!) for the current (and last) election. To my knowledge, "ALL the PAYING members" are eligible to vote in the current (and prior) election.

I'm sorrowed to hear that it was such a painful experience for you, and hope that with the passage of time (what year was this again?) that your wounds, both physical and emotional, will heal with minimal scar tissue. [Can we all have a group cry now?]

John, please out any of the current (now serving) and/or proposed (nominated) officers/candidates that you consider fall into this category of fierce "powers that be" who are determined to see the ruination of this assn so that the voting population is actually aware of the point you're trying to make. There IS a point here, right???

Please include specific actions these parties have undertaken which you feel has contributed/will contribute to the imminent demise of the assn.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The result however was the election of a hard working Fleet Captain...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that statement is agreeable to all...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...who staged a “Nationals” attended by more boats in Assoc. history, 22 boats...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that's been refuted here, but for the sake of argument please go on...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...and who served the Assoc. well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that was agreeable as well.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The one and only issue here is to secure that all the members have an opportunity to participate in, and be informed of, the governance of the Association.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Then why do you continue your tirades about past incidents? Repeatedly?

I'm just a sailor here, not a politician, so maybe I'm a wee bit dense. Please inform me how the current membership is being denied their opportunity for participation in, and being informed of, the governance of this here assn.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unfortunately there is a fierce and determined effort to retain the status quo and reduce the Assoc. to the forum, albeit led by a non-catalina owner.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Status quo of today, or of whatever historical situation you seem to be mired in? If we stay the same as we are now (status quo), how can the assn be "reduced" to the forum? And just how is a non-Catalina owner going to "lead" this adventure, not being qualified for membership OR a position on the board?

Right now the only "fierce and determined effort"s I'm aware of are yours to disrupt this forum (which before your resurection was rolling along just fine talking sailboats, thank you very much...) and now a building effort to see you and your alternate personalities flicked from this forum.

This might be the place to note that at this point in time I am not in favor of initiating or re-instating your banishment (voting off the island?). It is my opinion that this is a public, membership-not-required, forum and should remain that way in order to reach the maximum number of parties with interest in the Catalina 25/250/Capri25 line.

Maybe you have something positive and/or sailing related to contribute? Like how to make a keelboat plane, or how to enter the "Fourth Mode" of sailing. Maybe you could start off easy, like bashing the MacGregor 26X, or something like that...

BUT... Your attacks both on this forum and in your own blog are childish, redundant, and lack any timely issues. They are borderline abusive. However, they ARE without ANY doubt disruptive to the topic of the association in general and "injurious" to the association specifically. To date, I've not heard one point you've made that has application to either the current operation of this assn or it's staff. You keep proclaiming doom and gloom for the assn if things dont change, yet you dont specifically state what you have issue with - just that you have issues. [which is apparent]

We do not have, nor would we want, control over your blog. That's your world, you can call the sky whatever color you want.

As brought up by the OP:
X. SUSPENSION:
1. Any Officer or Member may be suspended or expelled by a vote of the Regular Members (Article VIII, Section A) for conduct or action deemed to be prejudicial or injurious to the Association.
[italics mine]

That said, I would support putting the topic up for vote to the membership and let them (the same ones who are voting for the assn staff over the next term- including YOU, John) decide your fate. (Crikey, it IS starting to sound like voting someone off the island...)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Too bad, I had hoped that a more open and informed Association Membership would evolve.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">"Informed" by continuing to whine about what happened in the distant past? If it didnt happen in the last term, or by any of the current or proposed officers/staff, or have bearing on the CURRENT/future operation of the assn.... then sit down and STFU.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That now appears unattainable.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, since you're on the list of nominees does that mean you're including yourself as part of the problem?

Over the past two years that I've been a member (including 1 as an officer) and however long I was lurking around here before that, I've not seen ANY assn topic come anywhere near approaching the fervor as this one - the booting of one John Gisondi, Nominee for Secretary.

Fortunately I have popcorn and beer...

Edited by - on

mfasis
Navigator

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114 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 16:43:23

Bravo!!!

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 22:34:03

1. Any Officer or Member may be suspended or expelled by a vote of the Regular Members (Article VIII, Section A) for conduct or action deemed to be prejudicial or injurious to the Association.

Well given the extremely low turn out of the voting members for our current election of candidates, how well would trying to vote him out go? I will be making recommendations to the next group of officers for a by law change(s) to prevent this type of stuff. Please under stand that your current officers can delete visitor posting at any time without fear, members are a little tuffer, Have you noticed that the "Observer" has not been posting in a while? We do not except bogus user-names with out proper addresses phone numbers and personal info. We have taken action to block prejudicial or injurious posting of non- members and we are currently letting at least one member hang himself and this time we will document it all and keep on record all his emails to the officers, threats and other such prejudicial or injurious material. This time we know the Federal law of how to handle threats being cast via the Internet and will take any and all action on anyone who violates these laws. So all of you might be warned, DO NOT let individuals like JG pull you in or you could be just as guilty. "Rome wasn't built in a day", but it damn sure burnt down in one night.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 09:21:30

I have posted my reply to Steve A's comments on the General Forum.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 11:52:17

John Gisondi was already fired as mainsheet editor, expelled from the association and banned from the forum when I was commodore by a vote of the officers. I don't need to go into the reasons because he's back at it for all to see. However he crossed the line in a private email to me and my family which went way beyond the stuff you see posted on the forum.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 13:35:02

I think that there should be a "Member's Only" forum inside the Member's Area but some kind of flag to postings there might be made in all of the others to alert members to the need for a more "private" discussion. The Brown Act notwithstanding. The cost of such a thing could be supported by a temporary increase in dues or a solicitation of funds from the membership.

Somewhere it's been said that the recent unpleasantries might be turning away potential members. While I doubt it had significant impact, the possibilty should be consiered.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 16:31:43

John, I agree there should be a Members Only forum and I thought the Member Feedback was for that? I would like to suggest that maybe regular members, who have voting rights and not honorary members, those who pay but have no voting rights, have access to the Members Only Forum-past officers excluded of course. I am not sure what is protocol here and this should be up the the regular members.
There is only a short description of the types of membership and perhaps that should be expanded and even include guests, as others have suggested.
Also stuff like financial reports and voting should be in a Members Forum Only, not in General Forum.
I would like to suggest we re-word Member Feedback and call it Members Only but that be at the front of all the forums and not hidden. Or put Association Business on top. Again, I am only suggesting and would enjoy hearing from other regular members.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/19/2008 17:40:19

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 19:00:59

I'll try to be as objective as possible here:
I agree that if a person has already been banned from the forum by a valid previous vote, then a re-vote is not necessary. To hold another vote would be superfluous, unless there is a time limit on the first ouster. If he, or anyone else, re-joined the Association under false pretenses, then that membership should be revoked.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2008 : 07:53:16

If John Gisondi was fired, expelled and banned, I don't understand 1.why he thinks he can come back, especially under the present circumstances meaning his sneaking back in and continuing to be disruptive to put it gently,
2. why we are needing to have this discussion. Once this process is completed, done is done, unless the current officers see reason to do otherwise. Lets move on.
Steve A

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 13:53:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Have you noticed that the "Observer" has not been posting in a while?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Except for some revisionism from Peregrine.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18556

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