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Redesigning the Catalina 25

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Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/17/2008 : 01:13:32

I have been reading past posts where people have upgraded our sleeping accommodations through various methods (increase the width of a settee, full-salon queen bed, cockpit bed, etc). I also desire a bit more room, but I was thinking about something more radical:

I want to...
move my galley forward to the mast bulkhead
move my port settee aft to meet the companionway bulkhead
remove the companionway bulkhead
move the aft 'centerline' bulkhead to the actual centerline
create a floor for the port lazarette so it doesn't just open to the berth

I then would like to ...
remove the forward bulkhead (is this structural?)
remove the starboard cabinet/sink
remove the port section of the v-berth
extend the starboard section of the v-berth to make a full berth
create an enclosed head to port just fore of the mast bulkhead

I know that it will take a lot of work, and that's fine (we all need projects, right?). I'm worried about the structural integrity of the boat when I'm done. Will the removal of the port-half of the v-berth pose a problem? How about the missing bulkheads?

I'm compiling a list of projects to tackle this winter, and I'd really like to do this.

Here’s a sketch of what I’m looking to do:

Damien
s/v Schmetterling ('84 C25/fin/std)
Beacon, NY

Edited by - Sryth on 09/23/2008 12:32:53

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 05:03:02

Damien:

I only spent one year in Engineering School, but I would be concerned about your redesign in these respects:

1. The reason galleys are usually located near the companionway is for ventilation and safety. If you have a fire, you don't want it in the middle of the cabin. Also if your cooler is in the galley, that's a long way from the cockpit.
2. The chainplates are attached to the saloon bulkhead. The compression post carries the primary support of the mast, but removing both bulkheads in the mast area . . . scares me.
3. Why have two sinks back to back? A number of folks have taken out the sink in the head and replaced it with a locker.
4. Your "enclosed head" is only half the width of the cabin, narrower than the original. You have the toilet tucked under the deck, where the hull is narrowing. Why would you make the head smaller than it already is?
5. I'm 6'3", and I can fit in the v-berth. Why would you lengthen it?
6. Are you turning the port locker into a berth? Why? Where are you going to stow your gear?
7. Is that a table dead amidships? I don't think I've ever seen a table that, even if folding, completely obstructs passage fore and aft. It looks to me as though only two people can actually dine at table. Why have berths for four but table for two?

It's fun to dream, but I feel the C25 pretty efficiently designed below decks. I'd make a few changes . . . eliminate the head sink, turn the v-berth into a head and locker a la Cape Dory 30-B, build a real icebox . . . or just buy a bigger boat.

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 06:36:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
1. The reason galleys are usually located near the companionway is for ventilation and safety. If you have a fire, you don't want it in the middle of the cabin. Also if your cooler is in the galley, that's a long way from the cockpit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is an angle I didn't think of. I've seen several designs that have the galley deeper into the salon; I'm wondering if the designers of those boats had to make extra considerations for ventilation. I'll definitely look into it.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2. The chainplates are attached to the saloon bulkhead. The compression post carries the primary support of the mast, but removing both bulkheads in the mast area . . . scares me.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The bulkhead at the mast would remain intact. I would be removing the aftmost and part of the foremost athwartship bulkheads. I would imagine the chain plates (are any on these bulkheads?) could be supported with some steel plate.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3. Why have two sinks back to back? A number of folks have taken out the sink in the head and replaced it with a locker.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am just rather fond of the idea of having a sink in the head; that's all :P
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">4. Your "enclosed head" is only half the width of the cabin, narrower than the original. You have the toilet tucked under the deck, where the hull is narrowing. Why would you make the head smaller than it already is?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was considering adding a floor-pan and shower hardware; not really possible without enclosing it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">5. I'm 6'3", and I can fit in the v-berth. Why would you lengthen it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm only 5'11 and it seems I can't fit in the v-berth w/o assuming the fetal position; I don't like the fetal position :)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">6. Are you turning the port locker into a berth? Why? Where are you going to stow your gear?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The port locker will become a berth, and I will make a shelf for the locker at the cockpit floor level. I never found this area very friendly for storage given it's depth. Storage in my design is available at the port-bow. I could always leave out the shelf of the locker, allowing storage (more storage, actually) as before.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">7. Is that a table dead amidships? I don't think I've ever seen a table that, even if folding, completely obstructs passage fore and aft. It looks to me as though only two people can actually dine at table. Why have berths for four but table for two?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That is a table dead amidships. You don't have to look farther than the original traditional design to find a table that completely obstructs passage fore and aft. As to the table setting accommodations, it's been my experience that the table is almost never used for anything except preparing meals...everyone on my boat eats with plate-in-hand (or on lap). The table is about a foot shorter than the original one.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's fun to dream, but I feel the C25 pretty efficiently designed below decks. I'd make a few changes . . . eliminate the head sink, turn the v-berth into a head and locker a la Cape Dory 30-B, build a real icebox . . . or just buy a bigger boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah, I do plan on getting a bigger boat, however my intentions are to skip a few sizes...which means making due for a few years.

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it!

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 07:53:31

Sloop, is it you that has the goofy boat

? Someone has a boat with the galley moved to Starboard. As I have said before, I think the big error in the C25 design was putting the galley on the wide bulkhead side of the boat, preventing a pullout settee berth in the salon. A person could buy a sliding galley for a 22 or any number of other boats or just build a galley close to the starboard bulkhead. This would leave access to the quarterberth. Then make a full length pullout settee on the port side and you are done.
I do think the forward bulkheads are non structural, to be honest I thing all the bulkheads could come out with some chainplate redesign.

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 08:39:43

My girlfriend just pointed out something that totally eluded me: I could just squeeze the galley along the port side (where it currently is), leaving the space where the sink is empty to access the new berth. This allows me to accomplish what I want with minimal rebuilding in the salon: settees can remain intact.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 10:21:23

Frank,
My boat is still original but I remember the boat you are referring to, just no the post that the pictures were under. There was (is) a C25 on "L" dock in Mission bay that had the bulkheads removed to open up the cabin and there are pictures online here somewhere showing that. If you search the archives you might be able to find it. I remember JimB commenting on the missing bulkheads.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 14:45:27

Damien,

I think this configuration would be my next step:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp?slim=quick&currency=USD&units=Feet&seo=0&checked_boats=1404722&boat_id=1404722&back=/core/boats/1404722/0&boat_id=1404722

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 14:55:22

Chris, I think thta boat has most of what Sryth is looking for, but this one has even more...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?&units=Feet&currency=USD&ro=4&r=1877811&rs=yachtworld.com&rt=Deck%20Saloon&boat_id=1877811&checked_boats=1877811&slim=quick&Ntt=maltese&searchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&sm=3&luom=126&currencyid=100

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 15:14:24

Here's the post detailing the galley relocation done by Stampeder.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16622& SearchTerms=galley,starboard

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 20:41:29

Here's my girlfriend's brainstorm:

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 20:48:46

And the post related to the C25 with the bulkheads removed. Unfortunately the pictures were part of an eBay listing and are no longer available.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true& TOPIC_ID=8309& SearchTerms=ebay

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 21:58:09

My standard interior was modified by PO. the galley has been moved to the starboard side just forward of the starboard quarterberth. The sink is pretty much even with the bottom step. There is a small settee with storage just forward of the stove.
PO made this MOD because he is about 6'6" and needed a place to lay down so he made the port settee full length from the forward bulkhead all the way back to the NAV station.
I took pictures but had a small problem with my camera -so i will post pictures as soon as possible.
I believe my boat is a one of a kind. This is not a mod I would have done. I don't mind it but I don't really see the advantage. I like the way C25's are laid out. However, the big advantage to my mod is that it is easy to extend the width of the settee for a nice wide bed. This allows me to use the V-berth as a sail locker.
I've seen a C25 with its bulkhead removed, it is in great condition 10 years after the mod was made. Also recall seeing the pictures posted on this forum a year or so ago. That said, I would not remove that bulkhead unless the designer told me it was okay to remove. You would probably get a quick response from Frank Butler at Catalina Yachts if you called or emailed and asked him.
Sryth - how long have you owned your C25? How much have you sailed it? It is one of my persistent and consistent messages to new owners of these boats - sail it for a full year before you make any modifications of the nature you are talking about. I love my boat the way it is and I like to spend my 'upgrade' time keeping it clean and painting the bottom, replacing halyards and gudgeons and standing rigging - things that make it go fast and make me feel proud of it.

Edited by - stampeder on 10/05/2008 21:41:31

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 22:24:37

I suspect that Frank and his team played with about every conceivable combination to make the most of the limited space in the C-25--they came up with a couple of variations, and then moved on to designing bigger boats that have headroom for showers and such. Notice that they raised the C-25 head sole a little to make a level platform for a porta-pottie or marine head--suggesting that a shower there (which is not generally done with a raised floor) might not be feasible, and further forward would be less so, with less headroom.

Have you examined how the one-piece interior molding is formed, and how much of that you'd have to destroy to try to do what you envision? I suggest you and your girlfriend think about a bigger boat. You wouldn't be the first to go that way!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/17/2008 22:26:20

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 02:39:09

You don't have to look farther than the original traditional design to find a table that completely obstructs passage fore and aft. 

I have a dinette, but I'm pretty sure the traditional interior cabin sets the table off-center to port, allowing passage between the table and the starboard settee. The table is stored on the bulkhead to port of the compression post, and folds down from there, doesn't it?

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 10:04:46

There were three table layouts. The one on the bottom is the one I have on my 78. It is also the easiest to convert to a queen size bed as you only have to span the aisle way with the hatch boards under the seats. I don't believe any of these prevent access fore and aft unless you turn the pedestal table (bottom) 90 degrees from its intended position.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 10:44:12

Wow Prospector, what an unbelievable boat! Looks like they bought all the old sets from the "Star Trek Next Generation" show

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 23:21:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The table is stored on the bulkhead to port of the compression post, and folds down from there, doesn't it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
yes it does. Mine hinges down, then folds with an accordian (piano?) hinge in the middle. It can be used folded or unfolded. When unfolded it takes up about half the companion way.
In my picture above, you can see the corner of the table on the left. It is folded but in the down position. it is the position we tend to use most of the time.

Edited by - stampeder on 10/05/2008 21:40:56

Patrice C25
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 14:25:03

Hi,
I would also think twice before doing too major modifs. Not to change hull integrety..

And don't forget that your drawings are in 2D.... in the boat, the floor is not flat, the further up front you go, the less space you have...

Probably the only mods I would do, is like most owner, don't like to get in the Vberth. It would be to remove the sink in the head and this side of bulkhead. To make more room to acces the berth.
I have the dinette arrangement, so I made an extension board and we sleep sideway, this give us a full size bed...

Sailing is always full of compromise... ;-))

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2008 : 22:49:00

Patrice... I would suggest that removing the head to expand the v-berth would greatly diminish the value of your boat and its usability for cruising. Smaller boats have porta-potties in the v-berth area (under an insert), which at least for old folks like me, creates a problem for anyone in the v-berth. Even a tiny bit of privacy goes a long way!

Edited by - on

Patrice C25
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 09:45:25

Hi Dave,
I don't want to remove the head in my C25, like you said, this is a big plus for this boat, because there is not a lot in this size that have a separate head. Not under the Vberth.
I am looking at making the opening to the V Berth widder. And this is why I was thinking of removing only the wall over the head sink and add somekind of curtains, but leaving the wall section between the toilet and V Berth.

Here is a picture I found and mark-up the wall modif

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 11:29:25

Gotcha, Patrice... I guess I mis-read.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 23:04:02

Patrice,

I also have thought about modifying the bulkhead adjacent to the sink area ...for same reasons, provide more room in the VBerth. I have thought about it but doubt I would ever get to the stage where I actually act upon it. First, I am concerned about the structural integrity that may suffer if the bulkhead was either removed on that side or significantly modified - Is the benefit derived worth the effort and some risk to structural integrity. Second, my kids are grown and most overnighters would only involve my wife and I, so the VBerth is not needed. The quarterberth can be used and last year I completed a port side bunk extension which can be easily taken apart and stored but since it does not interfere with passageway to the head, I mostly leave it up and that is now the best place to sleep - It's wide and the mattress is great.

Edited by - on

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