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Mark strike?

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moserd
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Initially Posted - 09/26/2008 : 11:57:51

While on RC duty last weekend I encountered a situation which needs clarification (at least to me). The race was set as a windward leeward configuration with an offset mark at the windward mark.

The start gate (between the committee boat and a pin) was declared to be 'closed'.

On the down wind leg of a multiple lap race a boat struck the pin. The boat did NOT enter the start gate and there was another boat 'behind' the boat who stuck the pin so we have no idea what caused the boat to take the course it did.

The question is:

Did the boat foul by striking the 'mark'?
Should the boat have performed a 720 turn (penalty)?
Since no one protested should I as RC committee have protested?

I have received several opinions ranging from:

The pin was an obstruction and you can hit all obstructions you want

The pin was a 'mark' and the racer should have been penalized.

What do you all think?

Don

Don Moser

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 12:11:45

Steve will probably chime in here and correct any errors I make...
The pin is a mark of the course and as such hitting it requires a 360 penalty.
If you saw the infraction you are entitled to display a protest flag and hail the offending boat IMMEDIATELY. (Make sure that you have at least one witness!)

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 14:39:35

1st off, hitting a mark is a 360' penalty, not a 720'

Derek, I'm not sure that's correct. If you're not starting/finishing, I think the poison S/F line is an obstruction, not a mark of the course. The pin or RC is only a "mark" during the start and the finish. This is one of the reasons a lot of PRO's dont like closed lines. You have to add a LOT of clarifications to the SI's to make a closed line "official". So that begs the question - what do the SI state?

If nothing in the SI's, then all you have to work with is:
31.1 says "While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing." [italics mine]
In this case, the S/F line does not begin, bound, or end the leg of the course so I would say it's considered an obstruction.

IIRC, after the start the only thing RC can protest an individual boat for is failing to sail the course properly. It's up to the competitors to protest for touching a mark.

Jim

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 17:43:46

Jim, surely the pin "bounds" one side of the downwind or upwind legs, and as such is a mark both starting and running the course.
The pin cannot be regarded as an obstruction as it does not require a substantial alteration of course to pass it safely.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/27/2008 : 12:45:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Jim, surely the pin "bounds" one side of the downwind or upwind legs, and as such is a mark both starting and running the course.
The pin cannot be regarded as an obstruction as it does not require a substantial alteration of course to pass it safely.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My understanding is that in order to be a "bounding" mark, there has to be a required side to leave the mark on. The pin (or RC) can be taken to either side, but has to by bypassed, therefore would be an obstruction. A restricted line COULD require a substantial alteration of course to pass safely.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">DON: "The race was set as a windward leeward configuration with an offset mark at the windward mark."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, so we have W-G-L for a course.

During the pre-start (Prep up to Class down), there are no legs yet thus no marks. Can you hit the pin/RC pre-start w/o penalty? I believe so. At the start gun (Class down), the "marks" of the course are the pin and the RC, both of which have to be left to the correct side - that is pass between them. If contact with either is made, a turn is required (plus by beer for RC if you hit THAT mark!). Once a boat "starts", the marks of the course (the "leg") become the pin, RC and the first mark (W, in this case).

Once W is rounded (leaving it to the correct side), the leg becomes W-G, then once around G it becomes G-L. The S/F line is still there, is poison, but is not required to be left to a particular side, thus does not "bound" the leg. While you could argue that since it's restricted it becomes an "inside" bounds, it still doesnt meet the definition of mark in that it has no required "side". It's more like 2 big rocks in the middle of the course - you gotta avoid them (IT, if a restricted line), but you get to choose HOW to avoid.

Or, think about it this way: rather than an offset mark at the upwind, call the course a tight triangle, where G is halfway between W and L, but doesnt have much offset (ie it's inside the laylines to W). When you're going upwind on the 3rd leg (L-W) and you take that side of the course, is G a "mark of the course" and requires a 360' if you touch? I think no, because it's not a "bounding" mark on this leg - it has no required side to pass. Next one (W-G), yes, but not this one.

Once L is rounded on the final lap, the leg becomes L-S/F and the bounds are L, the pin, and RC. NOW they're marks of the course, must be left on the correct side, and require a penalty turn if touched.

I believe that this will hold true, whether the line is restricted or open. My $0.02.

---

Now then having said THAT, the RRS does call the RC a "mark" and makes no distinction about WHEN it's a mark.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Mark - An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, and a race committee boat surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line and objects attached temporarily or accidentally to a mark are not part of it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK, so is the RC boat considered a "mark" and required a turn (and beer!) if it's touched during a non-starting or non-finishing leg? Reading the above says it would. On the other hand, it makes no mention at all of the "pin"...

Thoughts?
Jim

Edited by - on

moserd
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Response Posted - 09/28/2008 : 08:45:39

Hmmm, seems like many of the same opinions from my group. My current 'leanings' are that since the area with the PIN and RC were forbidden (closed gate) that the strike was illegal however the various comments and opinions are very helpful. I will pass this information on to my RC and see what they think as well.

Thanks for the help!
D

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/28/2008 : 13:05:36

Yesterday, our YC had it's annual BBQ, and I posed this same situation. Interestingly, all said that the pin would be an obstacle, not a mark.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/28/2008 : 13:44:46

Running a W-L course, on the downwing leg with a restricted S-F line, you have to pass either the pin or the R/C boat on the "outside". The R/C boat is both an obstruction AND a mark. The pin is, by definition a mark, "an object to be passed on a particular side" It does not require a substantial alteration of course (at least it shouldn't!) so cannot be called an obstruction.
You can hit the pin without penalty in the first minute of your start sequence, but once "Peter" goes up you are officially racing and penalties apply.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 09/28/2008 : 22:24:54

The question is:

Did the boat foul by striking the 'mark'? YES
Should the boat have performed a 720 turn (penalty)?no a 360, unless the SI's indicated otherwise
Since no one protested should I as RC committee have protested? That is up to you. You are not obligated to protest. You should however note the race #, Sail #, time, Lap of race if applicable and known and surrounding boats in your log or notes.

I have received several opinions ranging from:

The pin was an obstruction and you can hit all obstructions you want it is a mark, not an obstruction 

The pin was a 'mark' and the racer should have been penalized.yes

What do you all think?I would have noted the incident, made sure the mark was not moved or dragged by retaking my hand held compass bearing on it and then protested on shore if the guy's not doing his 360 gave him a considerable advantage. If he finished in the bottom 3rd of a big fleet or finished on the last day of a big event out of the money I would have saved the time filling out the form and just let the guy know he screwed up.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/29/2008 : 10:41:39

An excellent summation, Duane.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/29/2008 : 18:05:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...on the downwing leg with a restricted S-F line, you have to pass either the pin or the R/C boat on the "outside". The R/C boat is both an obstruction AND a mark. The pin is, by definition a mark, "an object to be passed on a particular side" It does not require a substantial alteration of course (at least it shouldn't!) so cannot be called an obstruction.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Is the case the same given a NON-restricted line?

Glad this came up. Not that I've ever tagged the pin on a non-starting or non-finishing leg, a lot of the people I've talked with have been treating the pin as a non-mark.

Now I know...
:)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 10:05:18

Jim, I would think that with a non-restricted line (most unusual!)the pin is not a mark as it does not have to be passed on a particular side. Therefore, after the start it would seem as though there is no penalty for hitting it. The RC boat would still be an obstruction.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 16:34:03

Actually, around here restricted lines are more unusual, even at most of the bigger regattas. Too many grey areas in the rules (as this thread evidences) requiring clarification in the SIs.

We do use them for Wed nights, tho - amateur RCs (racers), not pros. Easier for them to keep track of what's going on.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 17:03:53

I think that unrestricted S/F lines create more problems. A restricted line requires no other mods to the SI's except "starting line is restricted after starting". The pin is always a mark and the racers merely need to read the definitions of "mark" and "obstruction" to realize this.
If the course is a W/L then not having the line restricted makes the downwind leg much less challenging - just sail straight from W to L with no tactics involved, instead of having to manoever around the line, deciding on which side to sail.
Just my 2c worth.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 19:37:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I think that unrestricted S/F lines create more problems. A restricted line requires no other mods to the SI's except "starting line is restricted after starting". The pin is always a mark and the racers merely need to read the definitions of "mark" and "obstruction" to realize this.
If the course is a W/L then not having the line restricted makes the downwind leg much less challenging - just sail straight from W to L with no tactics involved, instead of having to manoever around the line, deciding on which side to sail.
Just my 2c worth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here are some more tactics to think about - if the boat is not on station (i.e. Flag is down or Anchor is up) the restriction no longer applies.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 20:38:17

Sorry Duane. I don't understand you on this one. "Not on station" or "flag down" - before the start or while the race is on? If before the start no worry - hit the pin if you like (but not the RC boat!). If during the race how do they take finishers? The line is not restricted until you actually start racing - which is 4 mins before your start.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 06:56:43

I was referring to instances where the start finish line is usually in the middle of the course - usually a fixed mark compass rose (but not always.) The RC may reset the finish line to be square to the new heading, might move to take finishers on a shortened course or move to begin setting up for the next race because the line was actually a Start line only and there is a finish boat elsewhere. It seems like it should be rare, but it probably happens once or twice a season. Once RC picks up anchor the line no longer exists and you can go through it. My comment was probably not applicable though, but you'll have that when you're trying to feed the dog, have your 4 year old take a bath and try to check the forum all at the same time.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 10:11:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I think that unrestricted S/F lines create more problems.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree they are more problematic with multiple fleets starting/finishing, but less problematic wrt rules/SIs.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A restricted line requires no other mods to the SI's except "starting line is restricted after starting".<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, so I finally managed to find a copy of the SIs where we use restricted lines. Here's what is recommended by our area PHRF assn be included if restricted lines are desired:

9.3 Restricted Line:
Boats on a leg of the course and which are neither starting, in their starting sequence, nor finishing shall not sail through a start or finish line. The marks denoting the ends of the line bound legs of the course; the required sides are outside the line. Violation of this instruction is not correctable by rule 28.1 (string rule); this changes 28.1.

Exceptions: A boat may cross the start or finish line to comply with rules 29.1 (OCS), 30.1 ("I" flag), 31 (touching a mark) while starting or finishing or the definition of finish in order to start or finish properly under the RRS or to comply with rule 14 (avoiding contact).

Penalty: The race committee may protest violations as in rules 60.2 & 61.1(b). A 20% scoring penalty shall apply for each violation, but a boat so penalized shall not be scored worse than did not finish.

According to them, these are all necessary in order to permit restricted lines. The statement "The marks denoting the ends of the line bound legs of the course; the required sides are outside the line" is required for rule 18 purposes.

So yes, the pin is a "mark", if so definied by the SIs.

The local area PHRF assn's take on this was that the rules were too vague wrt to restricted lines and the above wording was necessary to fully restrict the line (ie treat both ends as "marks").

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The pin is always a mark and the racers merely need to read the definitions of "mark" and "obstruction" to realize this.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Only if the restricted line is completely defined in the SIs. Maybe everywhere else in the world the above modifications to 9. Marks is assumed? Apparently here it was determined that the rules as written were insufficient to clarify that point.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If the course is a W/L then not having the line restricted makes the downwind leg much less challenging - just sail straight from W to L with no tactics involved, instead of having to manoever around the line, deciding on which side to sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well now hang on a sec. Ok, I'll give the boat that can do DDW on a run a slight theoretic strategic advantage with an unrestricted line, with the line set directly in line with the W and L marks, AND in line with a steady-state wind - he doesnt have to dodge the line.

If we're talking tactics, then you might be able to use the restricted line to peel off a competitor, in which case if you're the one being bounced then it might be more challenging.

If we're talking strategy (deciding whether to go R or L), if the line is so long that it has that much impact it sounds like either the line is too long or the course too short. The decision to take the line R or L should be rather minor compared to going to the R or L after rounding W.

To say "much less challenging" is more like comparing a W/L course to a triangle, where the R/L decision downwind has already been made for you.

For a real challenge, try unrestricted lines at the local regatta with 11 fleets, 6 starts, 85-90 boats, and the longest leg about 1.5mi - where the question is do I go AROUND that mess at the line or THRU it? (We were in the 2nd start so fleets were still in sequence when we were coming downwind).

J

Edit: Corrected 9. Courses to 9. Marks

Edited by - SailCO26 on 10/01/2008 10:28:32

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 10:42:15

"11 fleets, 6 starts, 85-90 boats"
I would love to be in that! Reminds me of the 2002 C22 Nationals with 36 boats all trying to be on time at the start!

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