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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Lowering the mast forward why not.

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cat78
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/01/2008 : 13:55:51

For some reason there seems to be a great aversion to lowerin the mast of a C25 forward. About ten years ago, as my wife an I struggled to get my C25 mast up with a crane in the Shinnecock Canal in NY, two boat of substatantialy longer length lowered and raised thier mast one with a crew of one the other with a crew of two by using the boom as a fulcrum and the main sheet as a block and tackle. Since then I have lowered and raised my mast that way every fall and spring. I have a roller furler, if needs be to be known. Reading up on this I have found that this was a standard way to lower mast on canal boats. when done properly, this can be done with one person. There used to be an article in the tech section on how to do this. What I would like to know is what is the great reluctance to doing it this way?

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 17:59:35

Here is a video that a guy posted showing how to do exactly that.
He makes it look easy.
Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 21:06:57

i guess i am a little confused.
if you are lower it forward, are you putting the mast away for winter?
i have a tall mast with a metal furler. there is no way i could handle removing the mast, once down forward, back into it's storage position for winter. i wouldn't want to be the guy pulling the bolt at the bottom of the mast!!

i lower mine to the rear with an "a" frame and a winch.
the mast lowers into the rear cruch and i slide it back in trailering position.

i guess it's ok if your lowering to pass under bridge but,
it's just too clumbsy to go forward.

to each his own....

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr sailing at a cooler carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2008 : 22:44:33

I think the key difference is there's more boat aft than forward, therefore more room to handle the mast, and it'll be better balanced when it rests in the crutch. If you have a situation and a system that makes going forward better, good for you. I'm just not convinced it's best for the general case.

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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2008 : 10:02:12

A couple of years back, we lowered our mast to install a furler. While it was down, we installed a new anchor light socket, and a new steaming light. We lowered ours forward by using the mainsheet and the boom as the fulcrum. As indicated, the room forward is much less and we used the bow pulpit to support the mast until all parts were replaced and the furler installed. The mast stuck so far off the bow that we took our dog's yellow life jacket and tied it to the masthead to make sure other boaters didn't run into it accidentally. (As with most projects, we didn't know the anchor light needed to be replaced until we had the mast down so we had to store the boat in the slip stern end first.)

Anyway, my biggest concern was once we had the furler installed, we needed a couple of helpers just to make sure that we didn't bend the foils as we raised the mast. Maybe they are stronger than I know, but they sure sagged before we got extra help. It took 4 of us to get the mast back in place.

Edited by - cat1951 on 10/02/2008 10:03:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/02/2008 : 11:06:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 Here is a video that a guy posted showing how to do exactly that.
He makes it look easy.
Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What a great video! He says the entire procedure only took 16 minutes, and that he can lower the mast himself while under way, with his wife steering the boat.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/03/2008 : 19:31:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 Here is a video that a guy posted showing how to do exactly that.
He makes it look easy.
Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What a great video! He says the entire procedure only took 16 minutes, and that he can lower the mast himself while under way, with his wife steering the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is the way I lowered and raised my mast earlier this summer. Did it by myself. It would have been easier if I had someone to help keep the shrouds from getting tangled but overall not bad. Going back up was harder than coming down. I used the starboard self-tailing winch and was able to stop as needed to straighten out the shrouds.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2008 : 20:35:13

when lowering it makes absolutely no difference

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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393 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2008 : 19:00:38

Having done it both ways, I find forward infinitely easier. I use the boom as the gin pole. The forestay and furler have to be detached at the deck beforehand for obvious reasons. The one issue is that lowering forward puts the bulk of the mast weight forward of the bow pulpit, so the foot of the mast wants to flip off the tabernacle when unbolted. I sit on the mast when I pull the bolt, and then, with help, pull the mast aft.

Edited by - on

smoken
1st Mate

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USA
67 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2008 : 21:23:54

Gary, does the A frame keep the mast from moving side to side or does the center and aft shrouds do it? I fought for about 4 hrs to get the mast up on Fellow Ship with one guy helping

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 00:01:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by smoken
 Gary, does the A frame keep the mast from moving side to side or does the center and aft shrouds do it? I fought for about 4 hrs to get the mast up on Fellow Ship with one guy helping
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The upper (middle) shrouds keep it pretty well centered. I left the aft lowers alone. I loosened the upper shrouds just enough for the mast to go over the "hump" on it's way down. I used a bungee cord between the upper shrouds to hold a little tension on them as they got slack on the way down. I had a 10 knot direct crosswind coming down and probably 12 gusting to 15 going back up and didn't have any problems.

I wouldn't try raising or lowering without the A-Frame. It just makes it so easy.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/06/2008 00:04:14

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 11:59:54

Terry, I can't imagine it taking 4 hours. Are you including rigging time in that, or just time spent trying to get the stick up in the air?

We raised our mast twice this summer with help from friends. First time took about 2 hours including rigging. Second time, we lowered, fixed electronics, and raised again in less than 4 hours. We don't have an A-frame, but it is a winter project I plan to tackle strictly for raising.

I think that preparation, and pre-thinking are key. Give everyone a job and walk them through what they are doing. Do a dry-run and ask a lot of what-if questions before you begin.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2008 : 13:11:46

Without an A frame it is a experienced 3 man or rookie 4 man job with one experienced leader.

Edited by - on

Neffie
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2008 : 11:32:14

We dropped the mast on our '79 SK/SR C-25 last weekend to replace the standing rigging, sheaves, halyards and spreader brackets. The mast was lowered forward with the boat in the water in the slip. We did not use an A-frame. Just good old muscle power. Not knowing what to expect, I had a helper to lend a hand in lowering the mast. Once we were finished with the refit, I raised the mast, by hand and by myself, again without an A-frame or any other support outside of the lower shrouds. The mast does not weigh that much. Perhaps 85 lbs. fully rigged, minus the boom and main sail. We will be doing it all again once our new aft stay arrives from CD. I expect the entire job from start to finish to take less than 1 hour now that we know exactly what to expect.

I can think of no reason to need more than 2 people to raise or lower the mast on a C-25.

John
S/V Tilted Reality
'79 C-25 SK/SR #1359

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2008 : 22:21:13

I have lowered and raised my mast by myself, but everything must go as planned and I don't do it often or when I can get help. Without an A frame (rigid or ginpole and lines) and some mechanism to control lateral sway, it would be easy to get into trouble. People fall off of roofs all the time, and they frequently say they've been up there a hundred times without a problem.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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816 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 00:05:34

Lots of good info here but be careful. Us older boaters used to be able to raise the mast with just a little help too but now dropping the mast just once could ruin your day. The help of the A-Frame or bridle reduces the chances of dropping the rig and maybe on someone. Using a rope halyard or a too light fitting and when was the last time you checked the mast head fittings and keepers. The tall rig is heavier so more attention is needed with the greater effort required. Our Forum gives an opportunity to give suggestions so don't drop the mast... Keep sailing

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dave holtgrave
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 08:47:45

jim sweet

you got right on the nail.
i'm a big boy and i use an "a" frame.

last year at our club we had a storm that relocated a ranger 26 off it's trailor. the guy spent endless hours trying to find a mast.
for us guys in the cornfields it's hard to get a stick that long sent to us. for you guys on the coast you probably have it a lot better.

i read the above notes and see variations of each note.
taking the mast up and down for replacing gear is one thing.
unhooking the mast and getting it ready for travel or winter is another.

again i am a bgig boy and weight doesn't effect me but, i have to wrestle with the mast because of it's shape.
to release the mast base with the masr forward has got to put fordes on a bow pulpit that it was not desdigned for.
just my thoughts and work well for me.

i help others at the club take down their mast and i can say a standard mast is a lot lighter than a tall rig.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry at carlyle lake in southern illinois.
in destin till nov 1,08

Edited by - on

Neffie
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 10:54:18

It looks like my post wasn't quite clear. I do not use an A frame, but that is not to say I do not have any lateral support when I lowered or raised the mast. The forward lower shrouds were left attached to provide this very support. My point was that one or two reasonably fit (of which I only just qualify) people can handle the physical lifting and lowering of the rig. On the note of safety, my wife was in the cockpit with the main sheet attached to the main halyard to provide a means of safety so that in case something went amiss, she would cleat the sheet so I was not forced to lower the mast in an emergency.

Remember, the C-25 was designed as a trailer sailor. The rig is designed to be easily raised and lowered. The biggest thing to watch for is how the standing rigging is laid out prior to lifting the mast. If you're not careful, you'll end up with a twisted and bent toggle or T-bolt.

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 19:43:22

Does anyone have any details on their A-Frames? (how long, and how does it attach to the boat, etc.)

I have always lowered forward, using the boom as a gin pole, but after seeing the video, I like the idea of having more boat under the mast lowering it aft. My biggest issues have been keeping the mast and boom steady side to side, and the problem of having the majority of the mast forward of the bow pulpit.

The elevated crotch back on the stern pulpit would certainly keep the mast from hitting the pop-top and companionway hatch, but just how steady does the a-frame keep the spar side to side?

Thanks!!!

CHuck

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 21:57:59

Hi Chuck!

I'll try to take pictures and get measurements for my A-Frame.

I moved from Watergate to South Shore Harbor just before Ike arrived but it's only five minutes farther to Watergate. If you get ready to lower your mast give me a shout. If you haven't had time to make an A-Frame you can borrow mine and I'll give you hand.

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cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 22:17:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Hi Chuck!

I'll try to take pictures and get measurements for my A-Frame.

I moved from Watergate to South Shore Harbor just before Ike arrived but it's only five minutes farther to Watergate. If you get ready to lower your mast give me a shout. If you haven't had time to make an A-Frame you can borrow mine and I'll give you hand.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Gary!

Thanks! I appreciate it!

I am not planning on lowering the mast in the near future (at least on purpose!) But, when I do I will keep you in mind for sure!

South Shore Harbor has always been a GREAT hurricane hole, even when it was just a gravel pit before the area was developed into the outstanding facility it is now. We looked at moving there a long time ago, but it takes longer to get to the bay, and then back in from the bay and that cut into our sailing more than we wanted

Glad your boat made it thru just fine!!!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/14/2008 : 22:42:46

I had the same concern about the long distance out to the bay until the other afternoon. Instead of motoring all the way out to the bay I realized I can sail up the lake and then out into the bay. No point wasting all that time motoring when I could be sailing! I've sailed in the lake quite a few times now and have never had any issues with hitting submerged objects or running aground.

I wanted a fin keel originally but now I'm really glad I bought a wing keel. The shallow draft really comes in handy. If I see a big cruiser go through an unfamiliar area I know I can make it through also.

Btw, I was originally on Dock 12 at Watergate but moved to Dock 8B after Edouard missed us. Then when Ike came along I decided I was going to SSH.

Let me know sometime when you're going out and we can meet up.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/14/2008 22:44:06

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 19:37:05

Hi Gary!

Yes, I have had fun sailing in the lake too when the water is up, but Confetti draws 4ft 6" and have found a number of thin spots out there! Over the years I pretty much know where the really thin places are, but we do still prefer the bay to sail on.

Have you been out since Ike? I have had mixed reports of the amount of debris floating around in the bay?

Chuck

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 19:49:30

I went out last Saturday afternoon. I sailed the lake and only saw a couple of pieces of debris. I motored out through the channel to the end of the boardwalk and it was clear.

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cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2008 : 20:03:08

Excellent!!! Well, if the weather cooperates this weekend we may see if we can remember how to un-tie her!!!!!

Cheers!

-c-

Edited by - on

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