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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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boat speed

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BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/08/2008 : 16:24:15

I have been racing my 87 wing std rig once a year at the Wyoming Governors Cup. I have raced dingies and Hobie's a good share of my life (25 years) I have always had good boat speed until now. I finally got a good out haul and boom vang. I don't have a spinnaker and I have a Harken roller furling that is convenient enough that I want to keep it. I have a new full batten main and the original jib and a worn out 150. I am considering a smaller jib. Does anyone use a barber hauler to bring the jib in more? one reason for a smaller jib is I think it would miss the spreader and could be brought in further. We sail in high winds. I have a split backstay and I don't have a back stay adjuster and don't have a good idea on what to do with one. I would like a spinnaker but am having trouble getting excited about the investment and with phrf racing i it would take. I do like to win. I have a new vc-17 bottom. I would like to race more but time is short and I am not sure a wing keel and standard rig is a very good set up. Comments?

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:36:26

OK, let's see where you stand...

On the FAST side:
1. I have raced dingies and Hobie's a good share of my life (25 years)
2. I finally got a good out haul and boom vang.
3. I have a new full batten main 
4. I have a new vc-17 bottom.

On the not-so-fast side:
1. I have been racing [...] once a year 
2. I have a Harken roller furling that is convenient enough that I want to keep it
3. I have [...] the original jib and a worn out 150.
4. one reason for a smaller jib is I think it would miss the spreader and could be brought in further
5. I don't have a back stay adjuster and don't have a good idea on what to do with one.
6. I would like to race more but time is short

My first question would be - what's your competition doing? Are there other 25' SRWKs in your fleet? If none of them run spinnakers, then it's probably not worth the investment or PHRF hit. If they all run roller furlers, keep the convenience. I'm a bit S of you in CO - the C25's here run JAM, no kites. It's a mix of hank-on and furlers.

But the biggest standout to me is the little amount of racing you're doing currently. Yeah, 25yrs of going fast on dinghies and Hobie's is cool, but you need to learn to make THIS boat go fast, and there's a big diff between dinks/light cats and a C25. Get out and race. Frequently!

Next on the list would be the headsails. A worn out 150 isnt going to mesh well with a new main, the leeches dont match and you lose speed. If by "original jib" your talking 1987, odds are that's worn out too. Roller furlers are not FAST, but sometimes the tradeoff can be worth it. If you sail in a lot of changing conditions during the same race, a furler could be more advantageous. If wind speeds are more consistent, furlers are slow.

one reason for a smaller jib is I think it would miss the spreader and could be brought in further.
This may help with pointing/pinching, but is not necessarily FAST.

We sail in high winds
Are we talking 15+ or 25+ or ? If all of your sailing is in 20+, then you're probably not using the 150 anyway. Get a good 135 to match your main and determine the best car placement for your local winds (at 1x/year, I expect this to take about 5-7 years).

I have a split backstay and I don't have a back stay adjuster and don't have a good idea on what to do with one.
If you sail in 20+ winds, unless your main is cut really flat specifically FOR that, you want a backstay adjuster. Learn how/why to use it. As with the jib cars, dont expect to figure this out during the first race. Note: If you decide to stick with a roller furler, that will impair the backstay adjuster on a MH rig. Then again, if all of your sailing is in 20+, you probably just crank it all on and leave there anyway, so this may not be such an issue after all...

I would like a spinnaker but am having trouble getting excited about the investment and with phrf racing i it would take.
This is back to "what's the competition doing?" If none of them run kites, dont bother. If you're consistently sailing in "high winds", you'll DEFINITLEY want to sail more than 1x/year to learn to control a kite.

I am not sure a wing keel and standard rig is a very good set up
"Run what you brung". What's the fleet makeup there? Any other C25s? What's your rating and what's everyone elses? If you only race 1x/year, it's not going to be worth investing in a hotter ride.

I do like to win
Dont we all!

Where do you typically finish the regatta? DFL/bottom 3rd and you're looking to make a better showing; middle 3rd and you want bragging rights; top 3rd and you're looking for hardware; or top 3-4 and you're looking to WIN? I think this may be your #1 limiting factor: "I would like to race more but time is short". Fix that and put a new 135 on there and you would likely be competitive. But bear in mind it's in that order - a new sail wont win races for you! Getting out 1x/year wont win races, either. Even if YOU're that sh*t-hot, your crew wont be.

Jim

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:38:06

Based on [url="http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/Tool_%20HI_LO_AVG%20Report.pdf"]national averages[/url], your standard rig should get you about 3 seconds more than a tall rig from your PHRF committee, but the wing keel probably gets nothing over a fin or swing (unfortunately). But in your winds, a tall rig might not be much of an advantage. If you're getting the most out of your boat, you'll do well in PHRF.

I didn't race my C-25 (officially, anyway

), but I liked to make it go fast. Above 15 knots of wind, I considered the 130-135 to be the ideal headsail on the C-25. If overpowered, reef the main but keep the full genny (cars back)--you get more drive for less heel, and she's a headsail-driven rig to begin with. Roller furlers aren't that much of a handicap if you're not partially furled, except to the extent that the sail is typically cut with a higher clew. Lower is faster--higher gives more visibility and rolls up more compactly. Reefing on the roller creates drag and hurts shape--reef it last. Let your sailmaker know about your interest in racing, and what you think of the cut of the sails you have.

Regarding barber-haulers, my suspicion is they aren't effective on a large genny because they'll tend to cup the leach back in, which really screws your flow. But that's just a suspicion. As Jim said, experiment with your car placement--further back in heavier air, forward in light. Experiment using your knotmeter (or GPS) to see what works. But racing is more than simple boat-speed... As Jim said, you need to get out there and do it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/09/2008 12:41:35

BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2008 : 07:13:41

Part of the problem is I don't have c-25's to race with. we have finished in the middle of the fleet and we won our last regatta. We won the last two races on the stock jib, no main (we ripped the main). It was great fun dipping the winches with just the jib. We race a mixed fleet from Santana 20, Capri 22, c-22, c-27,c-30. Some run spinnakers some do not. We did well against the c-27 and c-30 but they are not good sailors. I wondered about the back stay adjuster and roller furling. I read about using it and I like the concept. A loose rig with more adjustment makes a lot of sense. Is there a c-25 fleet in CO. I plan to race more next year depending on gas prices, last year I blew a good chunk of the summer putting new barrier and bottom paint on. Thanks for the advice on the 135 head sail. I have been pondering what would be best for a while because I do need a new sail. I also need a new horse. It seems like I have way to much weather helm. It is much better with the new down and out haul. I still think it is way to much. I do have a light crew so we can't hold the boat down very well. We sail in winds from 0 and I mean zero to 50 and some times in the same race. Nothing like Wyoming wind.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:05:15

Hey, I thought you were having trouble!

Regarding weather helm, how's your mast raked? Oddly enough and against all conventional wisdom, in the conditions you describe, a roller furler might be the perfect racing equipment!

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:08:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BengeB
 ...we won our last regatta. We won the last two races on the stock jib, no main (we ripped the main).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds like you already have it under control!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is there a c-25 fleet in CO.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">At the local lake I sail on there are 2 C25s (PHRF 235, 241) and 2 C250s (PHRF 237, 242). Used to be a couple more of each we lost to attrition and/or upgrades. The 235-rated C25 took 2nd in the Spring series and 1st in the Summer for PHRF-B (10-14 boats).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It seems like I have way to much weather helm. It is much better with the new down and out haul. I still think it is way to much. I do have a light crew so we can't hold the boat down very well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How much rake do you have in the mast? If the CE (Center of Effort) is too far behind the CR (Center of Resistance), you'll get a lot of wx helm. Keeping the boat flat helps, too. Beyond the above, I think you're limited to reefing the main.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We sail in winds from 0 and I mean zero to 50 and some times in the same race. Nothing like Wyoming wind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds just like Dillon here! With windspeeds that radical, having the roller furler could be a big plus. If it's usually heavy air, I'd stick with a 135-ish sail.

Jim

Edited by - on

BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 08:26:48

I haven't been able to rake my mast farther forward do to limited back-stay adjustment. I am replacing my rigging and will probably go with an adjustable back-stay. I hope it helps. Where can I get a Dillon race schedule? I don't like the idea o going to Dillon but it would be nice to have c-25s to race.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2008 : 10:50:36

Here's the Dillon website, but I dont think any C25/C250s race there.
http://www.dillonyachtclub.com/

I crew there on a J/80 occasionally. Where I sail (Chatfield, Denver area) are a couple of each (tho the rumor mill says one C250 may be up for sale). The site for CSYC (Chatfield) is http://csyc.org/.

Edited by - on

BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2008 : 06:35:28

Thanks. I looked at race results not a single C-25. If I had more money I would buy a J-22 but that would require selling and I don't want to do that.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:45:16

None at Dillon, 2 each C25/C250s at CSYC in Denver. There's a C25 that races Carter (http://www.sailcarter.org/) once in a while, a little closer to you.

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BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2008 : 08:04:09

I capri 26 would be nice also. Someone wanted to trade on the swap meet but they did not respond to my inquiry.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2008 : 08:28:58

I went from a Capri26 to a Capri25 because I was strictly racing by that point. The CP26 is a GREAT boat, but not made for speed. It didnt help that the local PHRF assn gave me a 190 rating to work with (they now run CP26's at 225, a bit more realistic for that boat).

Compared to the C25 or C250, I would trade to a CP26 in a heartbeat.

Edited by - on

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