Association Forum - Universal M-15 or Universal M-12 Diesel Engine

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Universal M-15 or Universal M-12 Diesel Engine

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Daren
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/17/2008 : 12:40:05

Does anyone out there have an inboard Universal diesel on their boat? I do and need to share some stories and hopefully rectify a continual issue of the engine cutting out on me. OK, I won't wait for six of you to say yes I have one! Here is the deal, my engine runs for about 20 mins and then cuts out. I usually need to wait about 15 minutes before she'll start again and then not run very long. This past spring I paid a marine diesel mechanic quite a bit of money to fix what I thought was as fuel delivery issue to the engine. I'd like to think that the work was quality and the fuel delivery was solved, so outside of a fuel starved engine, what would cause it to stop and require a period of time to restart and then run tempormentally for another 20 or so. One more clue here is that if I push the engine to higher rpms, it will run for a shorter period of time. It almost sounds like it is overheating, but the guages would indicate so, but don't. The engine is OEM with the boat which is a 1986. I'd like to get some input from you guys out there before I call another mechanic. Thanks in advance!

S/V Prima Donna
1986, 15 HP Universal Inboard Diesel, Fixed keel, Hull # 5362

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 13:00:20

sensors are the weakest link

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 13:22:44

Hi Daren,
You more than likely have a M-12 (10hp) or M2-12 (11hp) Universal. Does the engine start immediately when you first get to the boat? Do you know if the tank has ever been cleaned? Does the engine smoke at all when it's started and if so what color?
I had similar problems a few years ago, I emptied and cleaned the tank and have never had any problems since. It was amazing the amount of gunk that was on the bottom of the tank. For anyone who has a diesel and doesn't know if the tank has been cleaned, I'd bet you'll be suprised at what you find when you clean it.

Edited by - on

Patrice C25
1st Mate

Members Avatar

78 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 13:39:25

Not an expert, but if the engine run well for about 20 min. and have to wait 15-20min before being able to restart. This look like a good time laps to cool down.
Have you removed the thermostat and change for a new one, there is often lot of stuff stuck there, the temp sensor might not work properly, not showing high temp, but the engin is. Is the impeler for the water pump good ?

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 13:50:20

The engine is OEM 1986 so I'd say M-12 10 hp. Yes, the engine starts immediately and runs fine. No smoke when started or underway unless I really go full throttle. Back in April I paid a firm to "fix" the issue of it crapping out on me. They did clean the tank and replaced the fuel. The mechanic left on a rag a bunch of crap that was in the bottom of the tank. Tank should be clean. I have not removed or replaced the thermostat - sounds like a winner - if the thermostat is not working property, would it cause the engine to shut down? The impeller has been changed also.

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 14:09:10

Do you have an electric fuel pump? If you do, does it click rapidly or slowly, when you turn the ignition on?

Also, when I cleaned my tank, I removed it and had about a cup of solid junk.

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 14:15:10

Electronic fuel pump...rapidly I guess. I might pull the inspection port myself and pump the fuel out and wipe it down. Probably should've changed both primary and secondary fuel filters mid season this year, but didn't. I also plan to get a length of fuel line and draw right from a diesel tank and see how long the engine runs. I have no idea if the engine will stop on idle or not because it always stops on me while in gear. My thoughts on the culprit:
fuel tank still has debris or gunk in the bottom
primary and secondary fuel filter needs to be replaced
fuel lines might be fouled
thermostat needs to be pulled/replaced

I think the fuel pump is OK and the rest of the engine. I'll try the easy - just time consuming - stuff first. If that doesn't rectify the issue, I'll call a mechanic. Still open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 14:15:29

Hows the water flow out the back? If the engine is overheating you should see a lot of steam (a little is normal) unless there is no flow at all. Also, the engine room should be noticably too hot.

Fuel issues should be noticable right away if you go to full throttle (surge and die syndrome). An engine that dies when running and then restarts after sitting awhile could be fuel filter.

Air issues would be lots of black smoke.

Oil clean, no water in the oil (if yes could be a cracked head).

Oil issues would be blue smoke.

Fuel injector issues would be lots of white smoke.

Pick up a book "Troubleshooting Marine Diesels" Peter Compton, I am looking at it right now for you. Here are the causes for "Engine Dies" and not overheated

Air in fuel system
Fuel filter clogged
water in fuel
fuel tank vent plugged
lift pump defective
governor failure

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 14:27:39

Featherman Enterprises is great for parts. I'm not sure, but they may have suggestions.

http://www.feathermanenterprises.com/html/m12.htm

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 16:05:28

Sure sounds like fuel delivery... Start with the filters. Also, there's probably a wire mesh tip on the fuel line in the tank--a sort of first-level filter that can get gunked up.

Are you using an algaecide in your fuel? That gunk is mostly algae that grows in the tank and then dies and settles to the bottom. Big chop can stir it up--that's when lots of sailboats die. People I know who add an algaecide haven't had problems. But your tank might need another cleaning first.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 18:23:01

I'm with Dave on this one. Sure sounds like fuel delivery. Bypassing your tank/fuel line and running from a jug to see if the problem goes away is a good idea.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that the engine restarts without bleeding the injectors. Usually when you starve the primary side of the injector pump you need to bleed the injector lines.
But maybe this injector design doesn't require it.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 18:37:36

I once worked on a new motor coach that would go about 10 miles before shutting down. Coast to the side of the road, fire it back up and it was good for another 10 miles. The cause was a grease pencil that had been left in or fell into the gas tank. As fuel was sucked through the filter on the end of the pickup tube (called a sock), the paper remains of the pencil would begin to clog the filter. At about 10 miles, the engine would starve for fuel and shut down. as soon as it shut down, the junk would fall to the bottom of the tank and the process would start again. I like your idea of using a piece of hose and a different tank of fuel. I think you are headed in the right direction.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2008 : 18:37:47

I second most that has been said but would also suggest checking the fittings on the fuel line before going too far. If air is getting into the line I think it could shut you down as you describe.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2008 : 14:17:25

I haven't read everything above but would suggest the following based on experience with my Universal Diesal which is the older version of the 15 or the 18 or whatever it is?

1. Bleed fuel lines.
2. Change Primary filter
3. Drain the fuel tank, pull it and clean it out with kerosene (1 gallon, shake then dump...repeat), refilter the fuel back into the tank with a water separater funnel.
4. Add a biocide fuel additive.

If it isn't just air in the lines and is in fact gunk in the tank then letting it sit for 10 minutes provides just enough shakeup to let the algae settle in the tank and primary filter enough to fire her up again. When we purchased our boat last year we had probably 15 year old diesel in the tank b/c the previous owner rarely if ever had to run the motor for more than 5 minutes coming and going before he hit the open lake.

There are places that will vacuum and filter the gas already in there, however this doesn't do enough to stir up any sediment in the bottom of the tank.

Edited by - Champipple on 10/18/2008 14:20:42

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 13:32:53

Honestly, the more threads I read about inboard diesels, the more I appreciate my outboard!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 17:52:11

"Honestly, the more threads I read about inboard diesels, the more I appreciate my outboard!"

With a modicum of care, the diesels run for a loooong time... 90% of problems center around fuel contamination... often due the the fact it may not get 'turned over' for years.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2008 : 20:35:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach

With a modicum of care, the diesels run for a loooong time... 90% of problems center around fuel contamination... often due the the fact it may not get 'turned over' for years.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No doubt. Nevertheless, my last outboard lasted twenty-one years with only annual tune-ups, and never had fuel contamination issues.

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2008 : 09:55:08

It does sound like a fuel issue, but since the fuel tank (and I assume the fuel) was cleaned, I would look at the fuel lines all the way from the tank to the filters. I ran into a similar problem in an Island Packet in Florida. We knew we had an algae problem, and changed the filters and had the fuel scrubbed to clean it. But after all that, we still couldn't get good fuel flow to the engine. We had a clear bowl on the water sepreator, and we could watch the fuel level drop as the engine ran. We took the fuel lines apart, and found a plug of algae that had accumulated at the joint of the pick-up tube that came out of the tank ( about 3/8" diameter) and a small shut off valve that screwed into it with a smaller orafice ( about 3/16"). The plug had formed against the end of the valve. We removed it and checked all other joints and lines, and that solved the issue.
Having said that, you could still possibly have some electrical compontent that fails as it heats up.

Good luck.

Paul

Edited by - on

jmoritz
Deckhand

Members Avatar

21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2008 : 11:58:31

I have the same engine and had the same problem. It is not overeheating it is fuel delivery. The original Tempo tank has a screen inside the pickup tube near the bottom. Junk collects in there as it runs til it gets starved. Waiting 10 minutes after it cuts out allows the junk to drop back into the tank. Universal even has a service bulletin out on the issue which I found only after finding the problem on my own. The bulletin recommends removing the screen and throwing it away. I added a secondary fuel filter near the tank as well. While you are doing this I strongly recommend removing and cleaning the tank. If it is original it will not be pretty inside. Once you pump the fuel out it is easy to remove. Put Gasoline in it and some large bolts or nuts and agitate. You will be amazed what comes out.

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2008 : 17:18:49

Well guys, I think I have fault isolated the issue with my engine…or more precieslly, discovered what it is not – the engine. This is good because the engine could get very expensive and difficult to diagnose. Looking from the fuel pump forward (fuel system) it is relatively simple…new filter, new lines, drain the tank, maybe replace the tank….Probably should've changed both of my filters mid season…lesson learned. So, Friday, I spent the entire day trying to fault isolate; I got a five gallon yellow jerry can and filled it with diesel. I disconnected the inbound line to the fuel pump and ran a new line from the fuel pump to the jerry can, then I disconnected the return line and ran that to the jerry can and started the engine for a second time……..Funny story, the first time I did this, I stopped at the gas station and filled the jerry can with three gallons of diesel, got to the boat, disconnected the inbound line to the pump and ran it to the jerry can…..of course the fuel disappeared pretty quick! So, I let the engine run for as long as the jerry fuel lasted, then I remembered the fuel system is closed. Another trip to the gas station and this time five gallons! Back to the boat, and ran both lines into the jerry can. Well, the engine ran in gear at 2700 rpm for two hours and not once hiccupped, burped, farted, or died. I was very relieved it wasn't the engine and now can focus my attentions forward and should be able to handle most of the work myself – the engine would've required professional assistance. First step, is to replace the primary fuel filter – right next to the fuel tank – yesterday I replaced the secondary filter which is on the engine. I would've replaced the primary, but the marina store didn't have the Raycor I needed (R12S). After I replace the filters, I need to run the engine again and actually maybe replace the filters again…..If the engine stops again and the filters didn't fix the problem, the next stop is to drain the fuel tank (which I probably should do anyway) and totally clean it out to include jetting the fuel cock…and then finally just replace the fuel pick up line from the tank to the pump and the return back to the fuel tank.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2008 : 17:20:37

Diesel engines need only two things to run: air and fuel. Assuming you have air, then it's gotta be fuel.

Check for the dreaded fuel pickup tube screen in the tank.

Check the bottom of the fuel filter. If you have an older Facet metal fuel pump, the bottom comes right off. There's a screen in there. Then, if you haven't plumb the fuel from the filter to the primary (Racor, usually) filter then to the pump and then to the engine. Catalina was notorious for piping the fuel to the pump first, and what happened is pretty much what you're describing.

FWIW, the only time I ever let someone else work on my boat (other than standing rigging) was on our engine, and I spent a lot of time fixing what he'd done. It took awhile, but I learned to make it run like a top (ten year on, now). "Qualified diesel mechanic," to me, is an oxymoron, and the only person I trust now is me. Cleaning out a fuel tank is not mechanic work. Having the engine run properly is important. It's a safety issue - the engine's gotta run, all the time, any time.

Here are some pictures: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 10/27/2008 17:24:52

johnsonp
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2008 : 20:08:17

Top drawer Daren

That's how you diagnose things.

paulj

Edited by - on

jmoritz
Deckhand

Members Avatar

21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 11:43:47

Just to reiterate my earlier point, If you have the original plastic tempo tank like I do there is a screen inside the pickup tube. Replacing your filters is good but I'm willing to bet it will not fix your problem. I spent hours troubleshooting the same problem until I discovered the screen inside the pickup tube. I highly recommend that you remove the screen. It is not necessary due to having two fliters already and in my opinion is dangerous because in cannot be inspected easily.

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 15:00:41

Aluminum fuel tank on the Prima Donna. Pick up tube mesh screen was replaced in April 2007, tank was drained and cleaned, fuel cock was removed and jetted....I am running out of options here guys. I can tell you the fault isolation drill seemed to point to it being an internal engine failure....There is one exception. I was told by the Marine firm that worked on her in April that the Prima Donna was "over propped". This means the prop that's on the boat is too large and is causing undo load on the engine...this might be leading to overheating due to load and black soot/smoke at above 2700 rpms. I also cleaned the raw water strainer, which was completly clogged with silt, and my sailing buddy (Bubba) told me he had never seen such strong flow from my exhaust since he had been sailing with me - I sent him a video from my cellphone! So, I am back to the fuel pump forward. I think what I'll do is replace my secondary and primary fuel filters, drain the tank - again and clean it (with a rag), check the pick up screen, and run another fault isolation drill on the flow of the return line to the tank, hell, just for fun, I think I'll disconnect the return and pick up lines and run some compressed air through them to make sure they are not blocked. The really cool thing about this work is that our season is ending up here in a few weeks and I'll be all fixed up for next season!

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 18:36:41

If you're going to blow out the fuel lines, why not just replace them? Not a bad idea to check that the fuel pump is working by checking the return flow with the engine off. The only other thing I can think of is injector pump issues, given your description of what's happening. Have you considered some of the diesel question message boards, since there aren't a lot of folks with diesels in their C25s? I don't have a link, but someone on the www.catalinaowners.com Message Board would know.

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2008 : 13:09:53

Well, I think maybe I have this licked! I really hope so. The fuel line, fuelcock, and pick-up tube are all fine as is the return to the tank - tested all. Fuel pump is fine, but something was still causing the engine to cut out....something was causing the flow to diminish. I'm stepping out here, but ....well, what I did was remove the primary fuel filter and "presto", no more engine cut out! The boat didn't have a primary on it when I bought it - I put the primary on and that is when my issues started. I think maybe the M-12 is not ment to suck fuel through two filters maybe. I digress, the primary is at the fuel tank and the secondary is on the engine. If the M-12 can take a primary (32 micron), then maybe the fuel pump needs to be updated. Who knows, maybe I just got lucky...maybe she'll cut out on me at the worst possible time on the Bay, but I do know that I check everything from the fuel pump forward and the thing that worked was removing the primary fuel filter...my poor little fuel pump couldn't hack it! I may have to swap out my now only fuel filter mid season, but that's fine. After pulling the primary, I let the engine run in the slip in neutral and underload for an hour each - she ran fine and the smoke dropped off too. Who knows....or maybe, more appropriate, who'da thunk it?

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.