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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Cynthia Woods sinking revisited...

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/28/2008 : 14:08:34

I just read that the widow is suing everyone except for Texas A&M.

Texas A&M pulled the sistership and had the boat recovered as well as the keel. The keel bolts were still attached, so it looks like the very thin fiberglass just gave away. I downloaded the ppt file from www.tamu.edu - just search Cynthia Woods...

Looks like very flimsy construction to me...

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Norfolk VA - headed south

Edited by - on

joemireur
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 21:42:58

I tried the link and searched there for "cynthia woods" but did not find much information other than the earlier story from when Stone's body was recovered.

Can you offer more light on this subject pliz?

Joe

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 21:54:55

Here's the [url="http://www.oceannavigator.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=5757E47454494ECDAEB312006EB7A8EA"]latest news I can find[/url]. Simply Google "Cynthia Woods sinking" and you'll find all the poop.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2008 : 21:57:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Looks like very flimsy construction to me...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...or a "very strong" wood cored keel stub, where the wood became significantly less strong (rotten)

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2008 : 08:51:37

I found a link to the PowerPoint file where pics were of the boat et al... I coudn't figure out how to transfer the link.... But I went to www.tamu.edu and used the search box and it came up. It is a presentation obviously designed in an open format wherein issues are being addressed. They had a whole section of Preserving evidence for example... It was like 3 megs and is a .ppt file

sten

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5853 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2008 : 09:47:46

Logically, it seems like the designer should be held responsible for providing a design which specifies the materials to be used and the tolerances necessary so that the boat, when completed, will be seaworthy and will be reasonably suited to the boat's intended purpose. (i.e., Lake sailing and coastal cruising, bluewater sailing, racing, etc.) If the designer met that responsibility, then he shouldn't be held legally liable. If he provided a design that was inadequate for the intended purpose, then he should be held liable.

The builder should be held responsible for constructing the boat in accordance with the designer's specs. If he built the boat in accordance with the designer's plans, then the builder shouldn't be held liable. If he used different materials or tolerances than what were specified by the designer, then the builder should be held liable.

If the designer provided an adequate design, and the builder constructed the boat in accordance with the design, then the owner of the boat might be liable for failing to maintain the boat so that it is safe and seaworthy, or for using the boat for a purpose for which it was not designed.

That's another good reason for getting a survey when you buy a boat. If someone is injured or killed on your boat, it can provide some proof that your boat was in a safe and seaworthy condition at the time you bought it. It's also a good reason to think twice before you use a lake sailer or coastal cruiser for bluewater cruising.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/29/2008 09:52:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2008 : 09:56:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...It's also a good reason to think twice before you use a lake sailer or coastal cruiser for bluewater cruising.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...especially with anybody other than yourself aboard.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2008 : 11:33:30

From a news account...

"The university confirmed that the Cynthia Woods had run aground as many as six times before the fatal incident.

They said the vessel suffered significant keel damage a year ago."

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2008 : 12:16:03

There you go.

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2008 : 17:21:36

Here's a updated [url="http://www.carolinacurrents.com/detail.php?1029"]report.[/url]

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1739 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 10:47:59

Excellent update and a valuable lesson for us all as well. Those "simple repairs" and "occasional accidents" can add up and, if not done/repaired properly, can devastatingly prove that old saying to be true: "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!".

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 12:07:18

...and, as I've harrassed people about before

, hull repairs should be done professionally--especially around the keel (including the C-25 swinger).

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 12:09:48

Thanks Tom, that's a heads up for all of us!

Paul

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 13:18:07

There is a picture of the recovered keel here.
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104062&styleid=1
And there are references that point to a commercial boat company reattaching the keel snd that students did further hull work that they were not qualified to do here http://www.khou.com/news/local/galveston/stories/khou081219_jj_cynthia-woods-sail-boat.7a22d557.html I'm not an engineer but from what I see of the keel where it attaches to the hull there is not much on the inside of the hull to keep it in place. I don't think this story is over.
Ed

Edited by - Ed Cassidy on 12/21/2008 14:55:06

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2008 : 14:41:18

Thanks for those links too Ed.

The bolts appear to be for the purpose of holding the blub to the fin but there does not appear to be anything suitable for holding the fin to the hull.

Even if the hull were 4" thick, there's a huge amount of leverage against that thin fin/hull connection. I would have expected transverse steel plates in the hull. Wow.
The info from 'Roger' in that first link says a lot.

(please edit out the period(.) at the end of the second link else we get a page not found.

Paul

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2008 : 13:16:56

The pictures tell the whole story as far as I am concerned. There is simply not enough fiberglass on the keel, and the hull break looks pretty clean. The Coasties are obviously hard pressed to blame the builder, but as far as I am concerned this vessel had no business doing anything but getting raced every so often, hauled, inspected and relaunched somewhere else. This vessel should not have been treated like a charter vessel. Modern racing vessels are unsafe (predictable) in my opinion because the builders are designing them too light and pushing the envelope just a bit too much, as a result - stuff breaks.

This makes me worry about all of the other lightweight - read flimsy - vessels out there that have hit the bottom once in awhile. Losing the keel outranks fire as the scariest thing that can happen out there.

Reminds me of the smile that was starting to form on my old C25. The point of attachment for the keel seems as wide as Cynthia Woods... But my bolts were starting to rust a bit and the smile was just starting to form. Has Frank ever had a keel failure?

sten

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2008 : 16:37:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...Modern racing vessels are unsafe (predictable) in my opinion because the builders are designing them too light and pushing the envelope just a bit too much, as a result - stuff breaks...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...like [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-REPv-ReY"]this[/url]?

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2008 : 21:55:01

Precisely. Can't make me... Also note that the EPIRB AND LifeRaft were improperly stowed. I think the university is still on the hook..

sten

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